Ciener 22 help

[Brian Ski]

Here is the way to start off a M16 column!!!! The voices said stay home and play with my guns....Well I got up and started messing around with the Ciener kit.... Start from the beginning... The kit was bought used, I bought a 3 1/2 inch 22 barrel and modified the kit so it doesn't use the adapter.....Oiled it all up and gave it a try.... Semi auto it seem to work great... Full auto I get a single shot and the second round is chambered hammer dropped but no fire.... Every time... works like a bolt action except for ejecting live rounds....I looked at the rounds... They have a firing pin mark....But it is very very light... I takes a little bit of looking to even notice it...

And for another question... Everytime I open the upper the buffer wants to pop out... It seemes the back of the ciener rail assembly pushes the buffer pin down. Then when it is opened the buffer pops forward.... I was thinking of cutting a small relief groove in the assembly so the pin doesn't hit.... Does this sound acceptable???

[M60joe]

One possibility:
If your barrel wasn't made correctly you have to time the sear trip by removing material from it. It is letting the hammer go to soon. I have had to do this on someones with the .22 barrel (not the .223 w/ adapter like yours) Cycle the gun by hand on auto and see if the hammer is let go to soon....


Are you using the anti bounce weight?

[Dan0341]

I agree with Joeblack. It sounds like a timing problem. I don't think it's bolt bounce since it does it everytime. Refer to the pic of the bolt (with red arrows) below for an idea of timing. At this point, the sear prevents the hammer from releasing. This is the closest I could get the bolt to the chamber face without the hammer being released by the sear (while trigger pulled and the selector on "auto"). As you can see, the gap is quite small.

http://home.netcom.com/~uzisubgun/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/m1622boltcloseup1.jpeg

If you need to delay the hammer from falling, you'll have to remove 'a very small amount' of metal from the trip (refer to pic below). The area where you want to remove the metal is shown with a white line.

http://home.netcom.com/~uzisubgun/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/aaaaceinerbottomresize1.jpeg

Let us know how you make out.
Dan

[Brian Ski]

Originally posted by joeblack
One possibility:
If your barrel wasn't made correctly you have to time the sear trip by removing material from it. It is letting the hammer go to soon. I have had to do this on someones with the .22 barrel (not the .223 w/ adapter like yours) Cycle the gun by hand on auto and see if the hammer is let go to soon....


Are you using the anti bounce weight?

I am using the weight.... And it sounds like you hit it... I am not using the 223 adapter I am using a new made 22 barrel... It does sound like the timing is off... So basically gring some off the back of the trip... And I know a little goes a long way... anyway for a shadetree mechanic to measure it???

[Brian Ski]

Dan it looks like you snuck in between my post.... Sounds like I will give it a try....

On to my other question on the buffer being released when the upper is lifted... I see the same wear mark in your picture all the way to the left of you pic... the small round shiney spot... Any problem with it releasing your buffer???

[Dan0341]

I haven't had any issues of the buffer releasing. Thinking about it, I can't see any issues arising from cutting a small groove to prevent this from happening. Or, maybe you could take a small amount off to shorten the buffer retaining pin?

Dan

[M60joe]

Originally posted by Brian Ski
I am using the weight.... And it sounds like you hit it... I am not using the 223 adapter I am using a new made 22 barrel... It does sound like the timing is off... So basically gring some off the back of the trip... And I know a little goes a long way... anyway for a shadetree mechanic to measure it???


Grind or file then shoot..... grind or file then shoot... grind or file too much and file it in the round container.....


You could shim the barrel out a little and avoid messing around with the sear trip.

[Brian Ski]

Well I found out the problem.... After looking it over for a while the hammer did not trip a little early, it tripped really early like when the bolt just started moving forward... When I got the upper I used Mr Dremel to cut out a clearance for the auto sear... It was just not quite enough.... When the upper was closed it tripped the sear....

Now that that was figured out I was getting some ejection problems.... I took it apart and made sure the ejector was nice and true... It seemed to help a little... I think the extractor needs to be replaced... There is about 1/32 play between the extractor claw and rim and bolt face.... It is not holding the brass very tight... Don't know of a way to fix without replacing it...

I am getting a jam about every 5-10 rounds... It seems to be throwing the brass up into the gap between the bolt and the bolt handle, crushing it when the bolt comes forward...

Thanks for your help guys....

[Brian Ski]

BTW I did cut a small notch in the back of the kit and it clears the pin and doesn't keep popping the buffer out when I open it...

[Dan0341]

Originally posted by Brian Ski

I am getting a jam about every 5-10 rounds... It seems to be throwing the brass up into the gap between the bolt and the bolt handle, crushing it when the bolt comes forward...

Thanks for your help guys....

When experiencing a spent casing between the bolt and the charging handle, it's usually due to one of the feedlips. The feedlip is actually ejecting the casing before it makes it back to the ejector. I had two out of four mags that did this. Just take a file and slowly remove metal until the problem ceases. Once you get it right, you'll rarely ever experience this malfunction.

Dan

[Brian Ski]

I will have to give that a try... I only have one mag for the moment. I did notice that it seems to be pretty tight getting it the last 1/16 inch in place before it locked... If I pulled back on the bolt a little it dropped right in... Several wear marks on the mag so I couldn't quite locate where it was hanging up.... maybe give it a try tomorrow.

[Brian Ski]

Tweaked it out and it started running well... Until something didn't feel right... Opened it up and the recoil sping was wiped out... I know I put the washer behind the rod... But it seems to be gone.... Or well parts order time....

[Vegas SMG]

I've had the exact same light firing pin strike in F.A. as you and suspected bolt bounce. Joe Black also suggested tweaking the sear trip but by then the had kit pissed me off to the point of putting it away for many months. Like your JAC conversion, mine runs great in semi, but F.A. is another story. Maybe I'll give it try.

I've also heard that Eric at Lakeside has the "correct" recoil spring that will cure this light strike problem but I'm guessing he's up to his eyeballs building those .22 beltfeed uppers for the M16/ AR15 family. :D

[raffica]

Brian, I've putzed around with mine with joeblacks assistance and we have it running pretty well. mine is in a RR, but that should make no diff for my points.
you want the extractor to hold the rim snugly against the bolt face. to do that, take the extractor out (ya, lovely roll pin to remove) and put it in a vice, tap lightly on the top to force the point down closer to the bolt face when assembled. doesn't take much. at the same time, take a little off the nose of the extractor, the part that slides into the notch on the chamber. you want eliminate interference so that doesn't absorb energy from the bolt closing. then put it all back together & the extractor should hold a round snug in place.
Also, remove the firing pin (another
lovely roll-pin to remove) and the firing pin spring (tiny, about the size of a Bic pen spring) and clean the hole out reall well. crud tends to collect in the hole, preventing the firing pin from moving freely.

I didn't think up any of this, borrowed most from AR15.com's web page on pistol/rimfire calibers.

[Neo]

Thanks Dan. I have the same problem with one out of the four Ceiner mag's I have, which is seperate from the good three mag's of course. Everyother round a casing get's jams up into the gap between the bolt and the bolt handle. Will file down the feed lips on the one mag, thank you.

[Dan0341]

Neo, glad some of the info may be of use. For additional information and pics, click on my webpage: http://home.netcom.com/~uzisubgun/id3.html

Dan