New guy help

[Nwcid]

I am new to this site but have spent lots of time on a couple of others. I thought this would be the best place for these questions sicne you are the Uzi experts. Just for back ground I have an IMI Model .45 SN 46xx with a 9mm set up. On a different board they were talking about the Plastic Sweedish training ammo needing a special BBL. Someone made a comment that there was a BBL made for the Uzi for that ammo. I did a web search and came up with nothing. I also looked at the BBL FAQ here and nothing. Does anyone have any info on this type of BBL?

Now I have 2 NFA questions. I live in Washington state where SBR is not allowed and I would like to add a suppressor. Is it legal to use a "factory style" suppressor and the 8" as the BBL will not stay in or have the ability to fire with out the suppressor attached? This brings up the second point on BBL length. In looking at the length of the suppressor it appears that it would maintain over a 16" total BBL length, but I am not sure. One C3 dealer I talked to said having to keep min BBL length when a suppressor attached is a gray area. Another C3 dealer I asked said BBL length no longer matters since it is now an NFA firearm and no longer a rifle. Any help with that question would be very appreciated.

[RuhRoRorge]

You got me chief, but welcome aboard anyway! Someone "in the know" will be here post haste...

[bendavid25]

Sup dude, welcome to tha wild wild west. Hope yah got yer boots on :jester

[labrat454]

I am new to this site but have spent lots of time on a couple of others. I thought this would be the best place for these questions sicne you are the Uzi experts. Just for back ground I have an IMI Model .45 SN 46xx with a 9mm set up. On a different board they were talking about the Plastic Sweedish training ammo needing a special BBL. Someone made a comment that there was a BBL made for the Uzi for that ammo. I did a web search and came up with nothing. I also looked at the BBL FAQ here and nothing. Does anyone have any info on this type of BBL?

Now I have 2 NFA questions. I live in Washington state where SBR is not allowed and I would like to add a suppressor. Is it legal to use a "factory style" suppressor and the 8" as the BBL will not stay in or have the ability to fire with out the suppressor attached? This brings up the second point on BBL length. In looking at the length of the suppressor it appears that it would maintain over a 16" total BBL length, but I am not sure. One C3 dealer I talked to said having to keep min BBL length when a suppressor attached is a gray area. Another C3 dealer I asked said BBL length no longer matters since it is now an NFA firearm and no longer a rifle. Any help with that question would be very appreciated.

First its legal to own a suppressor in Washington State but its illegal to actually use the suppressor in that state. You can have it just not use it.

On a semi Uzi it has to have a 16" barrel and overall length of 26" to be legal Title I firearm. If it has a barrel less than 16" or overall length less than 26" its a SBR and has to be reg'd as one prior to making it a SBR.

If you had a suppressor welded on to a barrel for a barrel length of 16"+ for the Uzi it would be ok as long as you didn't use it in Washington state.

Only with machines guns it doesn't matter about barrel length as the Machine Gun status trumps SBR...

Cory

[bendavid25]

First its legal to own a suppressor in Washington State but its illegal to actually use the suppressor in that state. You can have it just not use it.

Oh my G-d! American legislative maddness at its finest! Sounds like Israeli law, must have imported it.

What I don't get is.....if you have a suppressor on the weapon....how will they know if you used it? hee hee hee:jester Dumb ass politicians

[Nwcid]

Thanks you for the help so far. I am very aware of the WA law as I already own a suppressor and will be buying more. I was not sure on the total length with suppressor since I have had different dealers tell me different things. The big issue with welding is the look. I want to keep a real look. Well I guess my question is this. If when the suppressor is attached to the gun and it's total BBL lenght is over 16" is this legal? As far as I am aware this is one of the few if any guns this set up works for since the suppressor actualy mounts to the gun to hold the BBL in. I know on a normal rifle just having a screw on suppressor or other device just "screwed" on to a BBL less then 16" is a no-go since if you remove the device you have a SBR. On the Uzi if you remove the suppressor you have a gun with NO BBL at all. For example when changing between 9mm and .45 removal of the BBL does not make it an SBR. I am not trying to get into a semantic argument, I am just looking for a solid answer or maybe even an ATF ruling if one has ever been made.

[watchin]

Good question. I am in the same state and have often wondered about the crazy laws that we have. No NFA is pretty easy to understand but suppressor's are OK as long as they are not used on a gun. Maybe they had something in mind when they passed that provision that we are not aware of. Now, if only I can find something really cool to attach a suppressor to...
-watchin-
(BTW, welcome to a really cool site)

[Nwcid]

Good question. I am in the same state and have often wondered about the crazy laws that we have. No NFA is pretty easy to understand but suppressor's are OK as long as they are not used on a gun. Maybe they had something in mind when they passed that provision that we are not aware of. Now, if only I can find something really cool to attach a suppressor to...
-watchin-
(BTW, welcome to a really cool site)


What part of the state are you in? I live in the NE and work right in the middle.

Here is the actual WA law on suppressors, item #3. Here is the link http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.250.

9.41.240 << 9.41.250 >> 9.41.260

RCW 9.41.250
Dangerous weapons — Penalty.

Every person who:

(1) Manufactures, sells, or disposes of or possesses any instrument or weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles, or spring blade knife, or any knife the blade of which is automatically released by a spring mechanism or other mechanical device, or any knife having a blade which opens, or falls, or is ejected into position by the force of gravity, or by an outward, downward, or centrifugal thrust or movement;

(2) Furtively carries with intent to conceal any dagger, dirk, pistol, or other dangerous weapon; or

(3) Uses any contrivance or device for suppressing the noise of any firearm,

is guilty of a gross misdemeanor punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.


[1994 sp.s. c 7 § 424; 1959 c 143 § 1; 1957 c 93 § 1; 1909 c 249 § 265; 1886 p 81 § 1; Code 1881 § 929; RRS § 2517.]

Notes:
Finding -- Intent -- Severability -- 1994 sp.s. c 7: See notes following RCW 43.70.540.
Effective date -- 1994 sp.s. c 7 §§ 401-410, 413-416, 418-437, and 439-460: See note following RCW 9.41.010.

All that being said .22 is one of the cheepest and coolest ways to go. Like I said I have a Gemtech Outback 2 now. I have it set up on 4 different firearms right now. Here are the pics.

P22
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/nwcid/DSC00414.jpg

Other P22 and London Bridge holster:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/nwcid/DSC02398.jpg

10/22 that I am building a stock for:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/nwcid/DSC00603.jpg

And last but not least my 77/22 by far the quietest. With subsonic rounds all you hear the sound of the trigger:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/nwcid/DSC00487.jpg

[watchin]

Seattle area. I agree, the laws are confusing in this state ( I think we are the only state that allows possession but not use of a sound suppressor). I did see a cutaway Maxim being displayed on a Luger at a gun show here and the owner was asked to remove it (some of the pseudo gun lawyers felt that it was illegal). I talked to the owner several months later and he was advised by the ATF that since the Maxim silencer was not functional that they didn't have a problem but the sponsors of the gun show didn't want to draw any negative attention by having it displayed again. It was a cool display showing the internal workings of a classis sound suppressor (also very rare). Here in the Western part of the state driving in the High Occupancy Vehicle lane with only one occupant is also a gross misdemeanor (and much easier to be cited). Nice pics. The last one is obviously not taken in WA state.
-watchin-

[Nwcid]

It is people who are worried about what might happen not what is legal that messes a lot of things up for everyone. It is the same as someone that says lets not have AR-15's at this gun show since someone may think that it is an "illegal" M-16 (not that an M-16 illegal). A good promoter would have got the FACTS and tryed to educate those around them. That last pic was taken in WA we were out by Ellensburg. If you will notice the rifle is not being fired, it is just being held.

[watchin]

BTW, this might be of interest to you if you haven't read the Term Definitions from the State laws:

This is in the Washington State law that you posted a link to -
(16) "Barrel length" means the distance from the bolt face of a closed action down the length of the axis of the bore to the crown of the muzzle, or in the case of a barrel with attachments to the end of any legal device permanently attached to the end of the muzzle.

In Washington State that is 16". If the barrel plus suppressor is 16" long, is legally owned and installed on the firearm (but not used) then it would appear that one could possess it. I am certainly not a lawyer or a law enforcement officer so it is just my interpretation of the English language here. If the government wants to make a case they usually find a lot of illegal drugs hidden in your attic after they search your house and confiscate your 'deadly arsenal'.
-watchin-

[Nwcid]

Ok, here we go. From the bolt face to the end of the BBL nut is 7.75" leaving just over 8.25" of BBL sticking out. Now the Gemtech Mossad, mounts with 10" BBL and replaces the BBL nut, states it is 11" long including the BBL nut. The BBL nut is 1". Assuming that the BBL nut adapter for the Mossad is a bit longer then a standard BBL nut I will call it 1.5". 1.5" taken off of the 11" can, that leaves you with 9.5" of length. That meens that the can would be 1.25" longer then the 16" BBL when instaled. I am not sure what you ment when you said "If the suppressor is 16" long" but that would be a hard one to do. The key is if the TOTAL length is 16". In the case of the Mossad has a total BBL length of almost 17.5".

The real question for this one is can one legaly do this without have a reigsted SBS. I think in the case of a Uzi that you can since removal of the can also "removes" the BBL. The only part of this that keeps me wondering is the fact that the can is not "perminatly" attached. With most firearms removal of the can has no effect in the BBL other then making them shorter. If the BBL your can is attached to is less then 16" with out the can you will have a SBS. In the case of the Uzi removal of the can make you have NO BBL.

[watchin]

I think I finally got what you are attempting..and that is to use the UZI with a short barrel held in by a suppressor that has the barrel nut permanently attached to it. The logic is that when the suppressor is removed you have a loose short barrel flopping around inside the gun so it is basically inoperable without the suppressor (or another barrel nut). I think that in our state, being in possession of the short barrel for the UZI and the UZI itself is a violation. If the short barrel was permanently a part of the suppressor and the length from the bolt face when closed to the muzzle end of the suppressor was 16" it should be legal. Attempting to maintain the short barrel as an independent part of the setup would likely be the problem. Again, it's likely that this could be interpreted as having all the parts for something that is illegal vs. assembling it. It may be just 'tribal knowledge' or not true at all but I remember reading that one could not possess the short barrel and the UZI that it fits into and still be cool.
-watchin-

[Nwcid]

You really need to go to this site. Not to beat you up since I am the one asking the question. Here is the link to everything about WA, http://access.wa.gov/. Here is the direct link to WA gun laws (RCW) http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41

I am guessing that you think it is illegal to have firearms on school grounds too. In WA it is not illegal. Spend a min looking at the firearm link and you will find out why. Then I will tell you about how WSP breaks the law all the time too.


9.41.190 << 9.41.220 >> 9.41.225

RCW 9.41.220
Unlawful firearms and parts contraband.

All machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles, or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, illegally held or illegally possessed are hereby declared to be contraband, and it shall be the duty of all peace officers, and/or any officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or the state of Washington, to seize said machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or parts thereof, wherever and whenever found.


[1994 sp.s. c 7 § 421; 1933 c 64 § 4; RRS § 2518-4.]

Notes:
Finding -- Intent -- Severability -- 1994 sp.s. c 7: See notes following RCW 43.70.540.
Effective date -- 1994 sp.s. c 7 §§ 401-410, 413-416, 418-437, and 439-460: See note following RCW 9.41.010.



Here is the key text:

any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, illegally held or illegally possessed are hereby declared to be contraband

In the set up I am doing if legal it would not be "designed and intended solely and exclusively...". I have a semi auto M60, many of the parts that fit the real one either fit or can be made to leagaly fit my gun, so they are not illegal. Now an auto sear out of an M16 would be illegal since there is only one thing it could be used for. I have a AR-15 upper with a 7.5" BBL wich by itself or with only a rifle lower in the house it could be an issue. It is not illegal in any way shape or form since I have a pistol registed lower that it is mounted on.

[watchin]

Since I am not a lawyer there is no way I can conjure up all of the scenarios that something might be considered legal or illegal. I do know that if it is going to cost me (either publicity or money that I can't afford) then it sometimes puts me off. I have seen way too many innocent people screwed over because of 'interpretation' or opinion. Months later they may be cleared (remember Ruby Ridge) but somehow it just is never the same.
-watchin-

[FOZ]

there is currently no one producing the required barrels there where some in the past but no one wants to take on the project or liebility

sorry

NEFOZ

[Nwcid]

there is currently no one producing the required barrels there where some in the past but no one wants to take on the project or liebility

sorry

NEFOZ


Thank you. One down one to go.

[Nwcid]

Ok, I said I would put up some video, here it is.

This is the link to a suppressed P22: http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=d8917c711b40178b7b2c4d0578ed4c4c.1353314

There is a total of 4 videos, 3 of them are of suppressors. All 9mm's were using standard 115gr 9mm, not subsonic.