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View Full Version : Learned about my Reising from an FOIA report


tony k
12-06-2006, 04:17 PM
http://www.hunt101.com/img/305975-big.jpg
Just received the results of my Freedom of Information Act request on BATFE's records regarding my Reising, SN 705x, and thought I'd share.

From the serial number, I knew it was late 1941 (first year) production. And of course the stock is marked "CITY OF PITTSBURGH". It came with a Fed Lab hard case, and Fed Lab was based in Pittsburgh, Pa., so I assumed it was that city, and not some other Pittsburgh.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/305971-big.jpg

The FOIA report showed the initial transfer from H&R, on the 1941 equivalent of a Form 5, was dated Dec. 26, 1941. It was part of a huge batch of Reisings ordered by that single department on a single F5, which confirms my thoughts that it went to the Pennsylvania city -- no small town would order that many SMGs.

I like old stuff, and wondering about previous owners. You know, the "If only it could talk!" approach. Thanks to the FOIA report, I know that the staff at H&R who did final assembly and crating for shipment were thinking and talking about what had happened nineteen days before, on Dec. 7, 1941.

For the law officers opening those crates, it was the first time in their life that another country had attacked the United States. Pittsburgh was the center of the U.S. steel industry, the crucible that drove American munitions production. "Loose lips sink ships" was not an empty phrase; saboteur had just entered the nation's lexicon. I imagine they felt an awesome responsibility. Lots of sweaty palms held 705x.

705x served through the war, then stayed on at the Pittsburgh P.D. until retirement from law enforcement in 1989. It mustered out to an FFL/SOT -- again as one in a large batch of MGs. She went to her first civilian owner via Form 4 in 1990, then on via Form 4 to a second civilian in 1995/96. When that owner died, the estate sold her to the FFL/SOT who in turn let me bring her to her present home.

An interesting "life" for a gun that's a decade older than I am. ;)
http://www.hunt101.com/img/305972-big.jpg

SubGunFan
12-06-2006, 06:43 PM
Very nice Reising.... & nice history lesson.

CIB
12-15-2006, 11:25 PM
Nice gun, and an interesting story to go with it. Thanks for sharing.

MuzzleFlash
12-16-2006, 03:08 AM
Tony that is very cool. I do believe I'll do that on my gun. Where did you get the FOIA forms and any tips on filling them out?

tony k
12-16-2006, 10:18 AM
Tony that is very cool. I do believe I'll do that on my gun. Where did you get the FOIA forms and any tips on filling them out?
There are no forms per se: You need to send them a letter, but like all "legal" requests, you need to use specific wording or they may turn you down.

I used a form letter posted by philasteen over on the Thompson boards -- those guys are always researching their guns. Here's a link: http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=5587&

I did an FOIA request a coupla years ago and the response took months. This time was very different: The day my letter arrived in D.C., they mailed me a letter of acknowledgement that promised a response within 10 working days. I actually received the response faster -- it was about 11 calendar days.

The way it works is, when they receive your letter, a BATF disclosure specialist sends a request down to records for everything they have on your MG (or other NFA item). The package gets sent to the specialist, who photocopies it all, then redacts (blacks out) certain info, and sends you a photocopy of the blacked-out copy.

Registration paperwork is considered tax returns (yes, even for tax-free transfers like Form 2's, Form 3's and Form 5's) so they black out the names and addresses of all of the owners.

So what you end up with is a list of dates of transfers, plus the type of transfer, which can still tell you a lot: A pair of Form 5 transfers, or a Form 2 followed by a Form 5, means it went through a law enforcement agency if there was a long time between the two; a pair of Form 5s dated closely together means it was F5'd out for repairs. A Form 4 followed by a Form 5 means the owner died. Etc.

In most cases, you will also get a copy of the original Form 2 or Form 1, which gives you date of manufacture, specs (barrel length on an M16 lets you know if it left the factory as a rifle or as a carbine). It also allows you to confirm C&R status (as opposed to a reweld).

Note, though, that FOIA responses are like a box of chocolates: You never know what you will get. You request all records but it all comes down to how diligently the records department does their search.

Sometimes you get actual copies of all the individual forms; sometimes, they instead send you a copy of the Registry Weapon History Report, which is a print of the gun's official entry in the Registry computer.

Many forms are "inaccessible" (read=lost/misplaced) -- the Form 2 filed by H&R for my Reising is missing in action, so the earliest document I received was the transfer from H&R to the PD.

And yes, the Reising search was free -- as were my earlier searches. If you use philasteen's form letter exactly as worded, yours should be free, too. They only charge you if you are a commerical requester or if you are seeking info to increase the value of your MG prior to a sale.

HTH! IMHO, it's the best return on 39 cents I've had in awhile.

labrat454
12-17-2006, 05:10 PM
Tony K,

Sweet looking Reising, and great history.

I would like to get the info on my M11 (as little as there will be). What do I need to do to get this infor through a FOIA request. What do I put in the request and where do I send it. Thanks...

Cory

tony k
12-17-2006, 05:26 PM
Cory, check out the link in my second post, the one right above yours. It is a sample letter that you just plug in your info, sign it, have it notarized, and mail it to the address on the sample letter.

labrat454
12-17-2006, 10:10 PM
Cory, check out the link in my second post, the one right above yours. It is a sample letter that you just plug in your info, sign it, have it notarized, and mail it to the address on the sample letter.

Doh I missed that. :bang Thanks...

Cory

az paul
12-18-2006, 12:42 AM
Neat!! Thanks for the post and idea!! Nice looker. Congrats!!

Patrick Floyd
12-18-2006, 06:52 AM
Great info Tony!!