Had a slam fire yesterday

[dustindu4]

Put a fresh 40 rounder in and pulled the trigger and the bolt jammed on the top of the mag. I yanked the mag down and it slam fired the top round.

Oops.

[KarlPMann]

BOLT SAFETY!


If you had the bolt safety, that wouldn't have happened. It's a small point as long as you are always ready and expecting it, but it does give you a little peace. Karl.

[MuzzleFlash]

Originally posted by dustindu4
Put a fresh 40 rounder in and pulled the trigger and the bolt jammed on the top of the mag. I yanked the mag down and it slam fired the top round.

Oops. Welcome to the club :eek!
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13856#post13856

[tommygun2000]

Originally posted by dustindu4
Put a fresh 40 rounder in and pulled the trigger and the bolt jammed on the top of the mag. I yanked the mag down and it slam fired the top round.

Oops.

Hey, it happens, but it wasn't a slam fire, it was a normal operation of the gun with a fixed firing pin.
As was pointed out here on this board before, whenever anything happens other than normal operation with an open bolt fixed firing pin gun: CONTROLING THE BOLT IS THE ABSOLUTE FIRST THING THAT MUST BE DONE ABOVE ALL ELSE. ( BEFORE )PULLING OR REMOVING THE MAG, or touching anything else on the gun, you must lock the bolt to the rear and place the gun on safety.

The bolt is the key to operation of the gun and therefore must be the main focus of attention during a malfunction, along with maintaining a safe direction of the muzzle. Pulling the obstruction(the mag) out from in front of it allows the bolt to proceed to fire a chambered round. I've done it, and bet almost everyone here has done it at least once.
Any open bolt gun will do it and its impotant to drill yourself in the sequence of clearing a malfunction.
Glad it was not a costly mishap, but remember it forever. It is one of the learning plateaus you reach with open bolt guns.
Be acutely aware of this situation, ESPECIALLY when allowing others to fire your gun, as they may do the same thing but with disasterous results. I never leave the side of someone firing my guns and have on more than one occasion stopped the shooter to correct their actions. Remember, if its your gun, your in charge.
Your experience will most likely be far greater than a non MG owner.
Welcome to the club.

[Vegas SMG]

What you had was an an A.D. I witnessed the same event with one of the 40 rounders and was able to safely and deliberately duplicate the event. The 40 round South American converted mags have the stop bumps located well below the the Uzi hand grip. Over insertion stops the bolt's forward movement, pull down on the mag without first re-cocking the bolt and the bolt continues it's forward movement and BANG, accidental discharge. Open bolt guns are different creatures, you MUST rack the bolt before any other drills are preformed. Watch out for the 40 round converted mags!!! Insert and pull down before firing.

[tommygun2000]

Originally posted by Vegas SMG
What you had was an an A.D. I witnessed the same event with one of the 40 rounders and was able to safely and deliberately duplicate the event. The 40 round South American converted mags have the stop bumps located well below the the Uzi hand grip. Over insertion stops the bolt's forward movement, pull down on the mag without first re-cocking the bolt and the bolt continues it's forward movement and BANG, accidental discharge. Open bolt guns are different creatures, you MUST rack the bolt before any other drills are preformed. Watch out for the 40 round converted mags!!! Insert and pull down before firing.

Lets not be too quick to isolate any 40 rnd mag as the sole cause of an AD. There are a number of causes, ammo, mags, barrel/chamber ...but only one real solution, and that is controlling the bolt FIRST, once the malfunction has occurred no matter what caused it.

Bottom line is THINK SECURE THE BOLT FIRST!

[amphibian]

Originally posted by KarlPMann
BOLT SAFETY!


If you had the bolt safety, that wouldn't have happened. It's a small point as long as you are always ready and expecting it, but it does give you a little peace. Karl.

Karl,
The bolt safety ONLY works if the selector position is on Safe. If he had it on semi or full the bolt safety wouldn't help.
I agree that the first thing you gotta do is secure the bolt.
Amphibian

[RoverDave]

tommygun2000, you're right that there can be many causes for a ND (isn't that the correct term these days instead of AD?) But it's fair to point out the added risk of the Argentine 40 round mags. (The South African dual cut mags are really Argentine mags.) As Vegas SMG pointed out, they aren't made for the UZI the mag well stops are in the wrong spot, allowing you to insert too far. Extra precaution should be used with those mags.

[Vegas SMG]

The 40 round Argentine mags are known for causing the A.D situation described here. I've read similar posts on other boards dealing with these mags. Yes, there are a number of other possible causes, but my money's on the mag being the culprit. As stated, I witnessed one of these A. D.s where a shooter was using one of these mags. I had no problem duplicating the condition, (safely) at the range just to see for myself. If memory serves me correctly, you can duplicate the condition by fully inserting an EMPTY mag into an already cocked gun and pulling the trigger.

I'm not knocking the mags, I just want everyone to be aware of the potential for bad things to happen. I own these mags cut for my Uzi as well as for my M16/9 and enjoy them in spite of their limitations.

[elguapo]

I did the same thing at an indoor range shortly after i got my vector... my brain was still in the closed bolt world as this was my first open bolt gun. The round hit the ceiling about two lanes over and actually caused a ceiling tile to fall down onto another persons target carrier and dropped their target frame from the carrier. They had to call a cease fire to put it back up. I think I even heard someone say "Nice shot!". I had gone from an attitude of "Look at me i'm shooting full auto, aren't I coool" to extreme embarassment and anger at the fact I could have done something so stupid. Well, I feel thankful that first mistake only injured a ceiling tile, and after that it's burned into my head that the bolt should be pulled back before touching anything else on the gun. Heck, I don't even take the gun down from my shoulder when it jams like that (rare, but I do have some bad mags I haven't sorted out) I just pull the bolt back with my left hand while still keeping the gun on target. That was my first and hopefully only ND.

[az larry]

This has happened to me without the discharge. I did secure my bolt before removing the mag. Being at the range, I then discharged the weapon with the chambered round downrange. The question I have is how do you eject a round with the bolt back? It would be nice to clear the friggin gun without a discharge. I'm sure there is an easy solution but I haven't had this happen more than once, and it was at the range. If this is covered in a faq please give me a link.

[MuzzleFlash]

Originally posted by az larry
...The question I have is how do you eject a round with the bolt back? It would be nice to clear the friggin gun without a discharge... I had this happen once. Tried to extract the round with a fingernail, no can do. I left my right index finger in the way while I gingerly unscrewed the barrel nut and pulled the barrel out. In retrospect, i could have engaged the top cover ratchet about 3/4 way back, but that by itself would be a feeble insurance policy. Probably the best thing to do would be to carry a wooden dowel or a curved piece of plastic in the range bag and jam it down through the breech into the mag well thereby blocking the bolt while you pick the round out.

[az larry]

Oh man! There has to be a better way!

[Selva]

I have a story to beat all the others on this subject. A year ago Christmas, a good friend took some money his wife did not know about and purchased a new Vector FA UZI (when they were still reasonable). He also forgot to tell his wife about the UZI. (claims he was getting it for her birthday). He decided to take some photos of "her" UZI to show the guys at work. The best location for the photos was on the the new bed spread for "her" new water bed. He decided to use "her" new digital camera to take the photos. He mounted the camera on a tripod to take the photos. He decided to use a 40 round mag for the photo shoot. (loaded of course). After taking the photos, he proceeded to take the mag out of the weapon. During this process the weapon discharged. (he still claims the bolt was forward and the safety was on). The round went thru the new bed spread, thru the new water bed. Also during the excitiment, he knocked over "her" new camera and broke it. End results - 1 bed spread lost, one water bed mattress lost, one camera broken, (also did I fail to mention the water leaked out and destroyed the new carpet that was put down before the bed was installed). She still has "her" UZI, it was transfered to "her" name. She shoots on a very regular basis. (she can out-shoot most men). He gets to shoot "his" 10 / 22 on very rare occassions, (under her direct supervision).

I know many here may call BS on this story, but it really happened to my brother-in-law. (THE DOCTOR).

[stymie]

That just has to be the PRIME DIRECTIVE!

Bolt safeties NO NOT make an open bolt smg... fool-proof... either! Any part can fail... anytime. Always expect... the unexpected!

THINK safety at all times. Don't let adrenaline get in the way of common sense.

PS: Don't get me started or I might tell you about the time I went shooting w/ two *lefties*... ! :eek!

NEVER again! lol... I CAN laugh about it now!

[Dan0341]

During subgun matches, when mag changes occur, I insert the Argentine magazines with the bolt closed. It takes a solid slap on the bottom of the mag to fully seat it, but there is never an issue of the mag being over-inserted. I was at a subgun match and witnessed an AD with a person using one of my Argentine mags. Not a good situation.

Dan

[dustindu4]

This particular mag was over inserted. I know which mag it is and I'm exchanging it for a new one. I bought it at the range I sometimes shoot at for $30.

By the way with the 40 rounders, I tried at least 20 mags to find 4 that didn't require a jackhammer to insert in the mag well. They didn't have wrappers though so I think that they were just plain old bad mags. They don't fit as nice as the 32 IMI ones but they work fine, except for that one.

[moondog483]

Are you talking only full auto problems or will my Mod. B semi auto slam fire? If so, how do you lock back the bolt?

[tommygun2000]

Originally posted by moondog483
Are you talking only full auto problems or will my Mod. B semi auto slam fire? If so, how do you lock back the bolt?

We're talking open bolt machineguns in this particular case.

[dustindu4]

A semi gun would do the same thing if it didn't have the bolt safety.

[KarlPMann]

Errr, no. A semi gun fires from a closed bolt. The only way a SA could do it is if it had the full lip on the bolt face. You don't even want a bolt safety on an SA gun for the same reasons you don't want a ratcheted top cover. It would interfere with the proper operation of the gun. Karl.

[amphibian]

Why is this thread even called "Slam fire"?
Correct me if I am wrong but an example of slam fire would be like in an AR/M16 where the floating firing pin slams forward and detonates the primer without the hammer even hitting the firing pin.
What happened to dustin was an AD by not securing the bolt. The bolt did exactly what it was designed to do as it is a fixed firing pin SMG OPEN bolt - go forward and fire.

[M60joe]

Originally posted by amphibian
Why is this thread even called "Slam fire"?
Correct me if I am wrong but an example of slam fire would be like in an AR/M16 where the floating firing pin slams forward and detonates the primer without the hammer even hitting the firing pin.
What happened to dustin was an AD by not securing the bolt. The bolt did exactly what it was designed to do as it is a fixed firing pin SMG OPEN bolt - go forward and fire.


Yup, I agree

[tommygun2000]

Originally posted by amphibian
Why is this thread even called "Slam fire"?
Correct me if I am wrong but an example of slam fire would be like in an AR/M16 where the floating firing pin slams forward and detonates the primer without the hammer even hitting the firing pin.
What happened to dustin was an AD by not securing the bolt. The bolt did exactly what it was designed to do as it is a fixed firing pin SMG OPEN bolt - go forward and fire.


The gun did exactly what it was designed to do. I think it was an honest mistake and I'm sure Dustin now knows the difference.....and IT WON'T EVER HAPPEN AGAIN!!!! RIIIIIIGHT DUSTINNNNNNNN?????

burn that one into the procedure memory banks.

[stymie]

az larry...

& place it in the ejection port. Unscrew the bbl nut & remove the bbl..

Use a chopstick to punch the round out if it's stubborn.

[az larry]

Thanks stymie, I knew the remove the bbl routine. I was hoping there was a simple method without bbl removal. I really need to get that feedramp changed out. Less chance of a jam. But I don't want to be Uziless. After the Micro gets here I'll send the full size off to Vector.

[stymie]

for safety! :)

az larry...

Why take an unnecessary risk with a lodged, live round?

BTW: How did the Ever's holster turn out?

[az larry]

Didn't get the holster yet but I have one on order. It looks like it's going to be a great rig. Convertable from belt to shoulder. My Micro is pending, so I should get both around the same time.

[UZI SBR AWC]

Another "lock the bolt back" first..... I failed to set the bolt back on the sear before I pulled the mag,,,, bolt finished travel forward, and BANG!! At least my IPSC skills were in use, muzzle pointing down range when doing a malfunction repair, along with finger out of trigger gaurd. Mine happened using a 32 round mag, round did not feed proper, stopped bolt and held it,, when I pulled mag down, bolt finished it free forward travel and fired the round as it should.