IS THE UZI STILL COMBAT EFFECTIVE?

[edelweiss]

OK Im full of caffine an Ive got a few peaceful minutes before the next "crisis" at home or work. So this is a purely speculative question. Given all the new weapons available, is the UZI SMG still an effective combat weapon? SMGs have all but been eclisped by M4s and the like, is there still a place for the UZI or has the MP5 overshadowed it, only to be replaced by the mini ARs?

Some years ago (OK more than a few, back when we thought the Soviets were coming accross Europe at any momment), some folks with more experience than me, hypothized that in the Battle for Europe might be better fought with small squads equiped with a designated longrifleman, a grenadier/LAW, and 3 or 4 troops armed with SMGs for close work in urban envirments. It made sense at the time. Now the focus is all ARs versus AKs, but the need for longer range stuff as well as lots if urban combat is back. Is the UZI or any SMG still viable as a combat weapon?

Would you carry one into battle as a member of a military unit? Would you choose to carry one over an M4? What about as a PDW, if your primary mission wasnt intantry?

Would you use it for executive protection/body guard duties? Is a short barrel shot gun a better option?

Is their any role remaining for the UZI or any SMG in military or police work?

[Ben]

I believe that in urban combat (the future of modern Gen 4 warfare) there is a strong need for a short SMG. The M4 is a great weapon for mid range combat as well as short range, no doubt. The AK is an all around great weapon with a heavy round that offers much greater barrier penetration.

The Uzi has a 9mm round that is not as effective as the heavier 7.62X39 but the Uzi and other SMG's are great for clearing rooms, hallways etc..

When i go into combat in Israel, I like to have my M4 with 10 mags plus 2 in the weapon with a coupler. i like the versatality of the M4 as a mid range and a short range weapon in case I need to cover a street or a rooftop.

The Uzi truly shined in trench warfare where there was a narrow alley of fire needed and pillboxes to spray and clear.

All in all, I would rather carry an M4 with an M203 attached than an Uzi any day.
It is what I have been carrying for years and it is a very effective weapon

For me, the Uzi is for fun.
My SHTF weapons are a RRA AR15 flattop, an AK 47 variation and a 20 guage shotgun (less kick if the lady needs to use it). Pistol is the CZ P01.

[edelweiss]

Ive carried a M16, and a 203, into "harsh" places and frankly to my way of thinking it was always a compromise. Nice and light but suffering from the 556 round. I suppose the heavier bullet has made improvements to the old 55gr round but it never inspired me.

I guess Im just cranky because the combined rifle and grenade launcher never inspired me. It made that light weight rifle alkward to carry and even more heavy with a vest full of grenades. Then theres the, "what do I shoot?" question. A dedicated grenadier with a M79 etc made better sense to me, but then Im Old School

Being Old School, I suppose thats why I think theres a BIG place for the SMG in alot of places Military and Police. Especially a good one with an accurate semi option. Ofcourse the SMG is all but useless in open long range country, just as it shines in the thick stuff and urban enviroments. In the desert I'll take a full size rifle but in a MOUT Id happily carry a SMG. No every soldier shouldnt have a SMG, neither does every one need a rifle. SAWs are in the squads, so to could SMGs.

Just my 2 cents with tooooo much caffine to keep my mouth shut.

[Ben]

The M4 with the 203 is a lot smaller/shorter/easier than the 16 with the 203

[edelweiss]

First no offense is ment here, theres no sense pissing off somebody who knows which end of the rifle the bullet comes out....

Yes I know the M4/203 is smaller than the M16/203 but its still kinda clumbsy and much larger than an UZI. They have different missions and if SOMEBODY would realize that the M16 family wouldnt be squeezed into every situation. But alass we are/were soldiers and we go where we are sent, with what we are issued.

[Ben]

agree. I just like to carry a bunch of frags, pull the pin and throw like hell. Now thats the way to fight!

[johnnywitt]

I think there is a lot to be said about having a compact, accurate, and high capacity weapon that has no recoil (for fast follow up shots to head of bad guys which increasingly favor body armor) and a low muzzle flash/blast (try shooting a M4 in a confined area-practice saying HUH a lot). And lastly, with +p+ ammo, can be loaded to damn near .357 mag velocity. Funny how most people think 9mm is a pussy caliber, but those same people sure as hell don't say anything about 125gr .357 mag being for pussies (go tell a Navy Seal that a 9mm is a pussy caliber). Poodle shooters are just popular now because of all the conflicts they have been wielded in and the fact that law enforcement now favors them because of a perceived penetration issue with 9mm. Mostly, I think it boils down to what you get the most practice and trigger time on and for a lot of people that means a 9mm cause that's what they can afford to shoot.

[Oblofusc]

Answer: yes and no.

[Lights_out]

I would think body armor and range versatility has more to due with the popularity of rifle calibers over pistol SMG

[wonderdog451]

Dont forget that we have more options in calibers today as well. 357 Sig and 10mm arenext to perfect SMG rounds and will do a nice job on most body armor and have low recoil,quick follow up shots and range up to 150 yards.

[MJINGP]

Hard to argue with an IDF vet., but I think the UZI can hold its own in most SHTF situations where civilian BG's are encountered. The military, on the other hand, is a whole other matter. :patriot

[boomka]

Answer: yes and no.

+1
Let the SAW guys carry an SMG or SAW as needs dictate.

[Ben]

The true answer to this question is, as it always was, yes and no. It always depends on the combat situation. My point is that we are in a time where the future of combat operations especially in the mid-east is very much focused on close quarter battle.
For CQB a good SMG does the trick very very well and the Uzi has one of the finest track records of any SMG.
Yay Israel!!

[StooperZero]

Unless Somethings changed 9mm will still kill you dead ..................

[Bob T]

There are probably a number of dead Arabs how could attest to the combat effectiveness of the Uzi.

[edelweiss]

The full power 10mm would make just about the perfect SMG round. In a decent platform with the ability to make semi shots out to say 100 meters it would beat the full size M16s and even the M4s for any type of MOUT or CQB operations.

H&K tried it with the MP5, but it doesnt seem to have been widely accepted since the advent of the M4s and the fall of the 10mm. Once again we are forced to have issued weapons chosen for the lowest common denomiator. Can you imagine a WW2 draftee saying to his sargent this gun is too heavy or it hurts my shoulder too much, you need to give me something else...:bang

Beyond all of that Im still a fan and strong supporter of SMGs for combat and police. Its all a matter of the situation. In the desert I'll take a Mauser, Enfield, or Garand to put fire on an enemy armed with AKs. In the jungle the M16 may be a decent choice. 762x51 and then 556 was forced on NATO when there should have been other options, just like 9mm trumped 45acp for a pistol cartridge and look where we are now.:pound

[rlowe]

The hit probability with a 9mm SMG is far superior to the M4 though with a muzzle brake the M4 can be tamed some. It climbs off target quicker than a 9mm SMG in it's stock form. 9mm isn't to shabby ballisticly out of a 10" barrel especially with the "hot" Israeli ammo. Body armor has become a major factor when choosing a weapon but, "hot" 9mm with a penetrator would out preform any of the new PDW calibers such as the FN P 90 and that HK PDW thingy. For open combat I'll take a 7.62.

[dieudonne]

though I have derided the 9mm semi 16inch carbine.....

a full auto uzi subgun is a compact formidable weapon and if i were in a sate that permited it id have one.....

9mm full auto compact weapon may not be the latest or the greatest but it still holds its own on either side of the law

[CIB]

SMG, PDW, pistol cal. guns= Short range/CQB
M4, AK= Short range/CQB/Mid-range
7.62X51= Mid-range/Long range
All of those weapons do well, within their respective range envelope, (for the sake of simplicity, I won't get into which has the best ergonomics, reliability, etc.). Assuming the end user has the required level of skill to hit the target.
The M4, suffers from the use of a 14" barrel, and the M855 cartridge, that's it, that's it's one major drawback/flaw, at least for military work.