mac-10 reference library?

[shadeone]

now that mac10.org is closed and i see a link to a bare mac reference library page, waht are the plans here? it wold be awesome to have a site like uzitalks reference pages dedicated to macs! Mac10.org only took it so far and never updated!

shade

[RoverDave]

I'll definitely add a few things to the MAC-10 main page but I certainly can't spend as much time with it as the UZI reference library. (Not unless one of you guys wants to pay me to do this full time.)

[shadeone]

over at macguns.com the guy that took it over was planning to do something like this library thing but he sad he was gonna do that about two months ago and never got anywhere... maybe you guys could colab on it or something?

i know that the macguns members would be more than happy to submit some stuff considering the planned library over there isnt going anywhere and our mac10.org reference pages are no longer available.. (speaking of, you should see if you can get permission to post up some of the old stuff that was on that site, i know where most of it is archived and all youd have to do is copy and paste - with proper permission of course!)

shade

[RoverDave]

If you have any contacts there of who I should talk to, please email them to me.

[M60joe]

Pages and pages of Mac info in this book.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/iannamico/mgbsite/usa.jpg



Buy it here: http://www.machinegunbooks.com/index2.html

[stymie]

The operational briefcase....
contained a Military Armament Corporation M11/380 smg equipped with a SIONICS 2 stage suppressor. The FARM in Powder Springs, GA was home to spooks, mercs & various Caribbean, Asian & African paramilitary groups. Mitchell Livingston WerBell III was no stranger to covert ops & specialized weaponry as he was a former OSS *problem solver*. He was financed by the 54/12 GROUP through an outfit known as Quantum Ordnance Bankers. He trained agents for the Bay of Pigs Invasion & has been linked to key figures in the JFK assassination. An associate of his by the name of Robert Vesco was in large part responsible for the bankruptcy of his Corporation as he fled the country with a significant chunk of the C.I.A.'s *black bag* money.

Marion Morrison aka John Wayne was invited to the encampment for demonstrations of WerBell's & Gordon Ingram's "Whispering Death". The incident almost had tragic consequences as the technician slated to showcase the brutal knockdown power of the small Ingram smg had inadvertently reversed his hold on the briefcase. The Duke was standing directly behind the case... with the *business card* at crotch level. WerBell casually sauntered over... whispered in the tech's ear... the case was 180'd... the lever on the bottom was shoved forward... & 30rds impacted the intended target in a little over a second. The acoustic NOMEX lining, fresh wipes & subsonic nature of the ammo yielded 29dB of reduction; the DUKE was impressed.

Not much has been written about that day & most is of anecdotal reference from associates of Mitch's son who went on to open a shop called "Brigade Quartermasters".

It wasn't until hours later that what had actually happened was revealed to the larger than life Hollywood Star... who supposedly replied with a grim chuckle: "You don't say!!!!" In '74, the Ingram 9mm M10 went on to be the co-star of the film: "McQ".

[stymie]

:)

[stymie]

(photo courtesy Erik Nolan)

McQ

[stymie]

(photo courtesy Erik Nolan)

McQ

[trilogymac]

Soldier of Fortune, January 1986. Great article on pg 54. It has a lot of history, number of guns auctioned, references the 9mm auto k designation, Leatherwood, SWD on and on and on. Call SOF and get a back issue if your a "MAC nut". 4-5 pages long.

Hope this helps,

Bill J

[SubGunFan]

Look closely at the color pic of the Duke holding the M10/9. That M10 is not going to hurt (or scare the ones who know M10s) anyone....... PULL the BOLT BACK to get people's attention.

When will those Hollywood farts pay attention to details.......

But then again, the lack of details make movies more "talked about"..............

SubGunFan

[stymie]

for the umteenth time today... lol.

On the beach, while being chased by Santiago's hitmen, he reaches into his BAG (the same one that he appropriated from the CL3 dealer) & pulls out the MAC with suppressor attached. This is the SAME bag that he had to take the can off to fit the smg into separately. (Kinda reminds me of the scene in COBRA where Stallone opens the BOX... & begins to assemble the Jatimatic; when he's done... the smg fits neatly into that same case... WHY bother to assemble it if it fits already.... GOOD GRIEF.. lol.) He only makes two mag changes in all the mayhem. You can even see the camera crew & lights reflected in the paint on the side of the car.

When the Cadillac noses into the water & stops... the next scene show the cady facing away from the waves.

The cop hitman in the beginning of the movie has a suppressed .45 1911 when he wastes the property section's cops who were dirty. Silencer is kinda tiny! When Myra get shot... she is shot with a revolver with a can no bigger than a D size battery.

When McQ 1st tries out the MAC on a trashcan filled with water & dumps 30rds in a second & a half... the bolt is jammed part way back on a spent casing; next scene it's fully forward (1st photo).

I suppose that the photo you are referring to might show him AFTER he dumped the entire mag & the bolt was fully forward.

For some reason or another... he had NO problem keeping the SIONICS can from unscrewing... even when using the crook of his arm to steady it... lol.

Of course... hardly anything beats the scene in "The Killer Elite" when Bo Hopkins is holding an UZI that's actually a MAC10 dressed up to resemble one... BUT the protective sight EARS are UPSIDEDOWN ...lol
;)

[stymie]

http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/012001/Mac10History.htm


A MAC History Lesson

By William D. Ehringer

A Comparison Of The Military Armament Corporation Model 10/9 mm (MAC-10/9) And The Sylvia And Wayne Daniels M11 (SWD M11/9) and other MAC-type weapons.

When Gordon B. Ingram first designed his M10 in 9 mm and .45ACP at his Powder Springs Georgia plant, little did he know that this design would be one that would captivate a number of different types of machine gun enthusiasts. His M10, in the early 1970s, embodied the spirit of making things smaller, more compact, and less expensive. He also believed in the philosophy that the fewer the working parts, the less that things can break. His theories are now axioms, as the MAC has become almost notoriously known as the most reliable sub-machine gun ever built. However, because his company and others produced a number of clones of his original weapon, a number of different questions have evolved over models and design features. The most common question (which is really a mistake) is what is the difference between a MAC-10 and a MAC-11 in 9 mm.

For those of you who are into MACs, you know that the MAC-11 is the .380 version of the gun (Table 1). This question is usually meant to be, "What is the difference between a MAC-10/9 and a SWD M11/9?" Since I currently own examples of these weapons, I took the time to write down the differences and do a little research on the history and development of the guns and the companies that built them. In no way am I claiming that this is an all-inclusive list of all the information on MACs. That topic would be better dealt with in a comprehensive book on this subject. Rather, this short narrative is intended to give the MAC enthusiast a feel for the differences and similarities between the two most popular transferable SMGs ever built.


Manufacturer Model Caliber Features

Military Armament Corp. M10 9mm open bolt SMG
Military Armament Corp. M10 45acp open bolt SMG
Military Armament Corp. M11 380acp open bolt SMG
RPB Industries M10 9mm open bolt SMG
RPB Industries M10 45acp open bolt SMG
RPB Industries M11 380acp open bolt SMG
RPB Industries M10 9mm open bolt pistol
RPB Industries M10 45acp open bolt pistol
RPB Industries M11 380acp open bolt pistol
MAC, Stephensville, TX M10 9mm open bolt SMG
MAC, Stephensville, TX M10 45acp open bolt SMG
SWD Inc. M11 9mm open bolt SMG
SWD Inc. M11A1 380acp open bolt SMG
SWD Inc. M10 9mm/45 open bolt SMG*
Jersey Arms M10 9mm open bolt SMG
Jersey Arms M10 45acp open bolt SMG
Erquiaga Arms Co. M10 9mm SMG
Section Five Ltd M10 9mm British made SMG
Hatton Industries S-701 (MAC-10) 45acp made for Jersey Arms
*SWD purchased frames from MAC, Stephensville, TX (Leatherwood) and built them up using RPB and Cobray manufactured parts.


Table 1. The different models of SMG and open bolt MAC-type guns produced by various manufactures. This table is by no means intended to be a comprehensive review of all of the manufacturers and models.

There are seven distinguishing differences between the SWD M11/9 and the MAC-10/9, and they are as follows:

The SWD M11/9 is made of a thinner gauge of sheet metal compared to the MAC-10/9. The big reason for the difference was not so much the cost but was the weight. While the MAC-10 is a light weapon, the SWD M11/9 is even lighter. My feeling is that this makes the SWD M11/9 easier to conceal, and is especially true for its .380 cousin. In fact, discretionary briefcases were made for these two guns, which allows the operator to fire the weapon from inside of the briefcase without removing the weapon. The thinner gauge of metal on the SWD M11/9 has not proven itself a disadvantage as far as durability goes, at least in my case, as I have put thousands of rounds in my SWD M11/9 with no appreciable signs of wear or stress.

The SWD M11/9 uses a different cocking knob (flat round knob) than the MAC-10/9 (smaller around, but taller). The cocking knob on the MAC-10/9 also acts as a safety, because turning it 90 degrees will lock the bolt in the forward position. The MAC-10/9 knob is also slotted on the top, so that you can actually aim the gun using the peep sight. Sighting using the SWD M11/9 is made near impossible because the cocking knob interferes with sighting. Furthermore, the original SWD M11/9 cocking knob is not ergonomically designed as only one finger can fit on the knob for cocking the guns near 20-25 lb bolt pull.

The SWD M11/9 uses a Zytel or steel magazine whereas the MAC uses steel mags only. The Zytel mags have had mixed reviews as far as reliability goes. The major problem with the zytel mags was that the feed lips would bend or break, causing reliability problems. The other major problem with the Zytel mags was that the seam along the back of the mag would split after being filled to capacity. Fortunately, there are a number of solutions to this problem. Tactical Innovations sells a Sten magazine well conversion kit that is easily installed on the SWD M11/9 allowing the use of cheap, reliable Sten magazines. The MAC-10/9 uses a proprietary steel magazine, (which are becoming scarce...read expensive), but this mag was less susceptible to failures than the Zytel magThe MAC-10/45 uses modified M3 Grease gun magazines. These mags are modified to fit the MAC-10/45 by shaving 1/16" of steel off of the rear of the magazine (for the mag catch) and 1/16" off the two locking tangs
on the side of the magazine. The SWD M11A1 in .380 and the MAC-11 in .380 are the guns which cause
the most confusion in regards to magazines. The SWD M11A1, which is a shortened M11/9, uses the same magazines as the M11/9 except the feed lips have been heated and bent to accommodate the diminutive .380round. The MAC-11 uses a smaller steel magazine which are rare and often expensive.

The SWD M11/9 bolt is smaller, and instead of having a fixed firing pin milled into the bolt face (ala the MAC-10/9), it has a firing pin that is pinned in place. Numerous other design differences exist between the SWD M11/9 bolt and the MAC-10/9 bolt and include: Dimensional differences, presence of a front detent for the MAC-10/9 cocking knob, slight weight difference, and overall length difference of the entire bolt, recoil rod and ejector rod assembly. The SWD M11/9 bolt is the same exact bolt used in the closed bolt semi-auto guns, withthe exception that the SMG bolt's firing pin is not slotted, and lacks the firing pin spring. One final note, since the firing pin on the SWD M11/9 is nothing more than a piece of sheet metal, owners of these guns should buy an extra firing pin as a spare.

The upper of the SWD M11/9 is also smaller in diameter (1" square I.D.) compared to the much larger MAC-10/9 which is about 1.5" square. While the SWD is smaller and more flat, it is also slightly longer (about 2") than the MAC-10. My guess was that this dimensional difference was done to compensate for the lack of weight in the 9 mm bolt, by giving it a slightly longer cycling distance. The factory cyclic rate of both guns is still very high, in the 1100-1200 rpm range, which means that a 30 rnd mag can be emptied in about 1.5 seconds by either gun. My experience is that the MAC is a tad bit slower than the SWD, but for all intents and purposes, they are both fast cyclic rate guns.

SWD M11/9s are also more prevalent, according to Wayne Daniels, SWD made about 17,000 of the M11/9 smg's, 3,800 M11A1 smg's in .380, and 500,000 semi-auto M11/9's. In contrast, the number of original Powder Springs MAC-10/9s is much smaller, and even more rare is the MAC-11/.380. While other manufacturers made copies of the MAC-10 (see table 1), its collective numbers still do not rival the SWD M11/9.Recently, JLM and Sons purchased nearly all of the remaining inventory of SWD M11/9s and SWD M11A1s.

SWD M11/9 is about half the cost of a MAC-10. Believe it or not, the MAC is becoming a collector's item. I know, when you bought your MAC-10 in 1975 you paid $125, but guess what, the gun is now worth in excess of $800. And because the supply is fixed and the demand continues to increase, the value of the MACs only continues to rise. To a lesser extent, the same goes for the SWD M11/9. In fact, in March of 1998, Mountain Accessory Corporation raised the price of the SWD M11/9 by $100, suggesting that the supply of this once very abundant SMG was dwindling.


The above seven differences are certainly not inclusive of all MAC-10/9s as a number of other companies also made the MAC. I have tabulated some of the differences below and in Table 1 on the manufacturers and lineage of the MAC-10.

Military Armament Corporation (MAC), based in Powder Springs Georgia from 1970-1976 was the first company to commercially produce the MAC Model 10 (MAC-10).This is the company started by Gordon Ingram that designed and built the first MAC (now you know where the name came from). MAC marketed a number of different weapons, but the MAC-10 (chambered in 9 mm and later in.45 ACP) and the high cyclic rate (approx. 1600 rpm) MAC-11 (chambered in .380) were its mainstays. MAC declared bankruptcy in 1976 and went out of business. A number of factors led to their demise, but the big reason was that little or no military interest in the MAC was generated. MAC sold its tooling and assets (registered and unregistered frames, and parts) to another Georgia-based company called RPB in 1977.




MAC-10 in .45 ACP, Powder Springs/RPB double stamp gun

RPB (which has been rumored to stand for Rape, Plunder, and Burn) made the MAC in the same calibers as did the Powder Springs Plant, but in some collectors eyes the manufacturing was not on par with the original MAC. Nearly all of the machine guns that came from RPB were either frame flats, frames or completed guns which were bought from MAC in the auction. Because the machine gun market at that time was not as popular as it is today, RPB came up with a new marketing strategy, which was to offer the MAC-10 as a Title I weapon (a semi-automatic) creating an Open Bolt semi-automatic firearm. BATF stepped in mid-1982 and halted the manufacture of open bolt semi's because they were easily convertible to full-auto. About a year later, RPB went out of business.

SWD Incorporated. In 1983, Wayne Daniels, a former principal at RPB Industries, started his own company. He modified the existing MAC design and created the SWD (Sylvia and Wayne Daniels) M11/9. The gun was MASS-PRODUCED, and that is the reason that so many are still offered for sale NIB. When the MG ban went through in 1986, SWD sold the rights (or became part of) Cobray. Cobray started marketing the closed bolt design Cobray M11/9. This semi-auto uses the exact same MG receiver as did the SWD M11/9, with only a few exceptions (selector switch not drilled, sear pin, and re-enforcing plates absent). After the Assault Weapons Ban in 1994, the Cobray M11/9 could no longer be made, so Cobray re-marketed the gun with a non-threaded barrel and a mag release as the PM-11/9.



Other Manufacturers

MAC, Stephensville, TX-James Leatherwood took the MAC design from the Powder Springs plant and redesigned the gun to be "better". In short, Leatherwood redesigned the trigger mechanism, the safety, and the stock. Some of these improvements were viewed as "improvements" others were viewed as "disappointments". The guns built by Leatherwood were also tack welded rather than TIG welded. This turned out to be the biggest disappointment as the "Texas MAC" has a reputation of shaking their tack welds loose and in some cases injuring the shooter. Many of the Texas MAC frames (I have heard in excess of 1000) were purchased by Wayne Daniels when Leatherwood operation folded. These "Texas MACs" frames were built-up using RPB and Cobray parts and most importantly, they were TIG welded. The SWD Texas MACs use a SWD magazine housing, SWD grip, SWD 9mm barrel, and most importantly the SWD Zytel mags.

Jersey Arms-this company built M10/9s and M10/45s before folding. These guns were built using essentially the same designs and principals as the PS and RPB guns and were made by Hatton Industries in Indian Mills, New Jersey.

Suppressors

Now as far as original suppressors go, two general types were built: a single-stage suppressor that used Nomex wipes and a two-stage suppressor that was wipeless in design. The two-stage suppressor was the original can made for the MAC. The single stage suppressor came along afterwards and was the one hated by its owners, and later by the ATF. The big reason for this hatred was that for the suppressor to achieve decent sound suppression, the internal wipes had to be replaced after only a couple hundred rounds. This is when Gun Show vendors started selling replacement Nomex "wipe kits." Problem was, that the same vendor would also sell the tubes the wipes fit in, and those individuals who made a suppressor in violation of the NFA ruined it for us all. This is when ATF ruled that any suppressor part was indeed a suppressor and had to be either registered or in the possession of a Class 2 manufacturer. Well as you can imagine, this shut-down the "spare suppressor parts business" and owners of these cans had a "limited life suppressor."


Two stage suppressor, with internals and a
homemade tool for removing the encapsulator

On the other hand, the two-stage suppressor can be easily disassembled and cleaned. It is easily distinguishable from its single stage cousin, because it has a larger tube screwed into a smaller tube, whereas the single stage is just a straight tube. Inside of the first stage of the suppressor (which cannot be readily disassembled) are shoestring eyelet's. The second stage contains an inverted baffle cone, then two spiral-type baffles held in place by an encapsulator. Threaded into the end of the suppressor is the only "disposable part" which is a rubber or wax-type grommet end cap. Going price for a single-stage suppressor is about $125-200, while the two-stage suppressor is in the $200-300 range (depending upon manufacturer and condition). RPB and MAC made two-stage cans, while I believe SWD and Cobray made the single stage cans.



Disassembly instructions

The MAC is a very simple gun to strip. I am going to assume you have a full-auto MAC, and since I own only PS, RPB and SWD guns, I am going to give you the necessary information to strip these SMGs. The Texas MACs are a little different so some steps may need to be fine-tuned in order to get them to work.

First remove the magazine from the gun and make sure it is unloaded. Cock the bolt back and make sure there are no rounds in the chamber (actually this is theoretically impossible in an open bolt gun as the bolt resting in the battery position should ignite the round, but always check and be safe). Remove the front pin (two pin design may require a screwdriver to push the small pin latch off the outer big pin). Remove the upper receiver from the lower receiver by pulling forward. Remove the bolt from the upper receiver by moving the bolt rearward until the cocking knob is centered in the large hole at the rear of the cocking knob race. Pull up on the cocking knob to remove. The bolt can then be removed from the upper by sliding it out the back.

(At this point, you are field stripped and ready to clean the lower and upper components. However, if you want to strip it to parts read on)

Push in on the stock latch button and simultaneously pull the stock rearward and out of the receiver. Using a small screwdriver, push down on the stock latch plunger located under the most rearward pin and push this pin out of the receiver. The plunger, spring, and latch can now be removed. The stock latch is welded to the frame and is not removable.

On the grip, remove the grip screw and grip. Push the magazine catch pin through its hole and remove the magazine catch and spring.





In the trigger group. Pull up on the selector spring (long wire that runs along the left side of the receiver) and pull the selector switch out of its hole. This may take some gentle nudging and holding down of parts. Once the selector is removed, the disconnect (thin piece of sheet metal nearest to the selector switch hole) is free and is removed. Also the sear is now free and is removed. The trigger is held in place by a trigger pin. Gently tap on this pin to remove it (some pins are directional so try this procedure GENTLY on both sides until the pin moves freely; however, all of the SWD, PS, and RPB guns have a trigger pin that removes from the left side). With the trigger pin removed, the trigger can be removed, and the safety is no longer held in place. To remove the safety, carefully tap the safety roll pin free from the safety and remove the plastic safety button. The safety assembly is now free and can be removed (Be careful as the safety has a small spring and detent which can easily be lost).

The bolt strips easily as well. First compress the bolt on its spring assembly about 1-2" to expose the recoil rod. At the tip of the rod is a small roll pin. Tap this roll pin out and carefully remove the spring (Caution: The spring is under a fair amount of force and you should wear eye protection when working on the gun). With the spring removed, the recoil rod/ejector rod assembly can be removed. The bolt only has one working part: the extractor. To remove it, carefully drive the extractor retaining pin out of its hole. I like to use a drift punch that is the same size as the hole, this way the extractor is retained on the punch and I can dictate the "terms" of its removal. Remove the extractor and extractor spring.

The barrel should be removed only when necessary. Before you start, spray some Break Free on the threads for the barrel inside of the upper to help loosen it prior to proceeding. Remove the upper from the gun and remove the bolt. Place the upper on a soft surface and tap the barrel-retaining pin from the RIGHT SIDE, so that the force of removing the pin acts to loosen the barrel (lefty-loosey). Place the end of the barrel in a vice that is lined with rubber or thick leather. Using a large screw driver or metal rod that will fit in the upper receiver forward retaining hole, slowly loosen the UPPER from the barrel (i.e., the barrel remains stationary and the upper is turned). I have had barrels that were easy to remove and I have had some that I swear were welded in place. The key is patience and a good vice.

Re-assembly of the MAC is simply a reversal of the above steps.

[stymie]

In short, the choice of either the SWD M11/9 or the MAC-10/9 is an excellent choice as a SMG, especially as a first time NFA weapons purchase. The biggest complaint about either gun is that they have very high cyclic rates. This is great when you first get the gun, but after the "fun" of dumping $6-8 down range in 1.5 seconds ends, most owners start seeking more "accurate means." Problem is, accurate usually spells expensive and thus MAC-10 and SWD M11/9 owners were left with a bullet hose. However, others and I have developed a means to convert a standard SWD M11/9 SMG into a VERY competitive SMG. In fact, the Slow-Fire M11/9 has beaten out MP-5s, M16/9s, and other rare and expensive SMGs in competition. For a complete description of the conversion plans for creating a Slow-Fire M11, see my write-up on James Kitching's Fun Supply Board at: http://www.tecinfo.com/~jayhawk/m11slow.html or alternatively you can read the even more comprehensive write-up on this conversion in a future edition of Small Arms Review.

In my opinion both the SWD M11/9 and the MAC-10/9 are great, inexpensive, easily accessorized, and easy to maintain submachine guns. No matter which one you choose, I can almost guarantee that shooting it will put a smile on your face.

[stymie]

Convert M11/9 to Slow Fire
MACMATCH READY SLOW-FIRE M11 MANUFACTURING INSTRUCTIONS by William D. Ehringer WARNING: The design and modifications given herein are intended to be performed by a competent gunsmith. Any person modifying his/her weapon does so at there own risk. Always unload you weapon and remove the magazine prior to working on your gun.

The MACMATCH Ready Slow Fire M11 (MMM11) is series of modifications performed on a SWD M11/9, making the gun sub-gun match ready. In the process of doing all of the modifications, the final result will be a weapon that behaves in a much different manner than the Sharon and Wayne Daniels (SWD) M11/9. In general, the conversion is based on the designs of Jim Weaver and Captain Monty Mendenhall of the TASK team. Since my conversion was done only by talking with Monty, there are likely to be some deviations from the TASK team design. Listed below is a step-by-step method for converting your SWD M11/9 into a MMM11, as well as a estimated cost to do the conversion.

Stock Adapter The first thing that you need to do is get rid of that flimsy wire stock that came with the gun and affix a real stock; a Colt M16 A1 stock (or CAR stock). My stock adapter was made by cutting a piece of one-quarter inch (NOTE: I had to use written text instead of numerical measurements because the web board has a problem reading the "inch sign") plate steel to the exact dimensions of the rear sight plate. When making this measurement, ensure that you measure from the sight post to the bottom of the receiver. To make the rails which lock into the lower receiver, I milled down two pieces of three-eighths inch rectangular bar stock to the exact dimensions of the rails from the wire stock (alternatively, you could cut the rails off the wire stock). These newly fabricated rails should lock into place, and protrude from the back of the receiver about one-quarter inch (i.e., they should be flush with the piece that you cut to the dimensions of the rear sight plate. Using a Dremel tool or end-mill, notch the plate to accept the rails, and TIG weld in place. A piece of one and one-half inch round stock was then placed in a lathe and the inside turned down, and tapped to match the threads of the Colt A1 stock buffer tube. I guessed on the internal threads and chased the threads a little at a time to get it "just right."

M11 Bolt Conversion The MMM11 does not utilize the recoil spring for taming the blow-back energy of the 9mm round. Instead the buffer spring inside of the A1 stock is used. Strip the bolt down (remove the firing pin, the recoil rod, and the ejector rod). In the bottom center of the original bolt, you will see a hole that was used in the manufacturing of the bolt (I say manufacturing because I can see no other use for it in either semi or in the full mode). This hole is tapped one-quarter inch (the hole is slightly over-size for this tap, about 7 thousandths), but will work. The tapping should not interfere with the placement of the firing pin retaining pin (i.e., the threads should end about one-quarter inch prior to this hole). A piece of three-eighths inch steel rod is then turned down and threaded one-quarter inch. The rear buffer plate is then drilled twenty-eight sixty fourths of an inch (centered to the rod you just tapped) to allow the newly threaded rod to pass through the buffer plate. The purpose of the "original recoil rod" is now to retain the rear buffer plate to ensure that the ejector rod does not move forward during the cycling of the bolt. To make the original recoil rod a "non-functional" recoil rod, the original recoil spring was placed on the recoil rod and then cut so that only one-half inch of the original spring protruded beyond the recoil rod. This cutting reduced the spring tension of the original recoil rod to almost zero, and thus one must never use this modified spring without the "new recoil rod" utilizing the buffer spring of the A1 stock.

Lower Receiver Modification To ensure that the rod will pass straight through the receiver, I used a piece of one-quarter inch wooden dowel that had one end pointed and the other end stuck into the newly threaded hole. The pointed in was dabbed with a small amount of paint or ink, and the bolt placed in the upper. The bolt was then slowly moved rearward to "index" the point were the rod should pass through. The lower receiver was then drilled in increments until a twenty-eight sixty-fourths inch hole was achieved. The inside of the hole was then polished and de burred to remove any points which might bind the rod.

Cutting The Recoil Rod To Length This is a critical step, since a rod that is too short could cause the bolt to slam against the lower receiver or if it is too long the gun will not function. In my particular case, I used a CAR stock, and measured the maximum compressible distance of the buffer and spring. This distance (4 and one-quarter inch) was then subtracted from the distance from the rear of the bolt to the rear of the lower receiver (minus one-eighth inch). This distance is the amount the rod will "stick into the buffer tube" upon maximum compression. Then I added the distance from the rear of the lower to the inner face of the stock adapter (about one-half inch). The rods final length was then the product of these dimensions (which turned out to be the 4 and one-quarter inch; the original maximum compressible distance, which out of serendipity works perfect for a carbine stock. These measurements are likely to be different on a full size stock (A1 stock)), or possibly another CAR stock and thus you should go through these steps carefully to ensure proper function.

Reassemble and Test Cock the gun and determine if the new assembly is binding. If it is, remove the assembly and look for wear points, file/sand as necessary to ensure smooth cocking. Use only two rounds in the mag, and run the gun in semi at first. After firing the two rounds remove the mag, and disassemble the gun and inspect the lower and upper for signs of contact. If the bolt is hitting the rear of the lower receiver, do not shoot anymore, and check your rods dimensions against the calculated dimensions.

In addition to the above modifications, my MMM11 has the following accessories:

1. Craig Wheatley Sten Mag Well Conversion and Lanchester Mags 2. K-Grip Ported for control 3. Titanium Paddle Magazine Release-If someone wants the dimensions on this, I would be happy to share this with you as well. This paddle mag release allows the shooter to release the magazine with the hand grasping the magazine housing by applying slight pressure to the lower side of you hand. The off-hand can then remove and insert mags, thus allowing the shooter to never take his eye of the sights. 4. MAC scope mount glued to the upper receiver 5. Tasco PDP4 Red Dot Scope 6. Improved cocking knob which resembles a "chess pawn" 7. Moly-resin the entire gun (both upper and lower receiver)

The Cost Factor The cost of the slow-fire conversion is going to depend on whether you do the conversion yourself or have someone do it for you. I did the conversion entirely by myself, and the cost was relatively low. My guess is that I have (including the CAR stock and materials) no more than $125 in materials, and probably 5-8 hours of machining time (say at $40/hr. cheap), that comes to $325 on the low end and $525 on the high end. While this number may sound high, your investment is likely recouped in terms of ammunition costs in 1-2 years.

Well I hope you all enjoy this conversion, and I look forward to hearing any critique (either good or bad) on the conversion as you examine the plans or actually do the conversion. Good luck!!

Your Friend In Liberty,

Wild Bill

More details from Wild Bill from my Tech Forum

One of the most important things you can do to your Slow Fire M11 is to properly attach a good sighting device. This is not a trivial matter because of several factors. Firstly, the MAC factory scope mount (MAC 1-800-344-4622, Cat#850-202) is slightly elevated (about 3/4"), which can cause sighting problems. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, is the method that MAC uses to attach their scope mount to the upper receiver. Their mount has a channel milled on one side (which fits over one of the upper's "ribs") while the right side has three small Allen head set screws, which in theory, are supposed to hold the scope mount in place. Hah, don't believe it for one second. After only two mags mine was moving. So, how do you solve this problem? You need to TIG the scope mount to the upper. I did so, but VERY CAREFULLY, as the thin sheet metal of the upper can easily warp or burn through if you are not careful. Make sure when you attach the scope mount that it does not interfere with the action of the gun (i.e., it does not interfere with the cocking knob's removal or, if you install one of my competition cocking knobs, hitting your optics) This is the type of mount I currently have on my MACMATCH Ready Slow Fire M11. I am impressed with the quality of the mount, and after a little practice at the range it's "elevated properties" are not even noticeable.

Your second option, is to attach a "Weaver-type" rail to the back part of your upper receiver (ala Jim Weaver and Matt "Mongo" Bright). If I am not mistaken, Jim perfected this design on his Slow Fire M11. The problem with this design, is that no (or at least to the best of my knowledge) manufacturers produce a steel Weaver rail. Because most are made of aluminum or some alloy, attaching the rail is not a straightforward job, and requires either tapping, or a welder who really knows their stuff. This design does have the advantage of lowering the optics, which makes target acquisition a little easier.

As far as optics go, it really comes down to what your plans are for the gun (i.e., competition, plinking, looks). My M11 has a Tasco PDP4 Red-Dot sight which I feel is superior to just about any red-dot on the market for competition. The big reason for my support of this optic, is that it has a very large field of vision and clear optics, which makes target acquisition fast and easy. This comes in very handy when you are trying to move the gun from one target to another, where the extended field of view allows you to pick up the secondary target much quicker than with a smaller sized tube optic. However, other red-dot scopes are also great candidates. In fact, I was considering trying a C-More or Halo-Sight to see if target acquisition is better. The choice though will ultimately depend upon your (and the Misses) particular desired use and the amount of money you want to spend (I bought my Tasco PDP4 for $140 about a year ago).

The muzzle breaks I have seen on the three different Slow Fire M11s I have encountered have varied from commercial to "homemade". The one on my gun was made by myself. However, it is just as easy (and to be quite frank probably more effective is to simply thread the end of the muzzle and attach a commercially manufactured break. Quite honestly, the recoil from my particular gun is not all that bad (I use 115 gr. FMJ in competition) and just a K-grip installed on the front works fine for me. One thing that is for sure, is that the reduced cyclic rate of the gun makes the M11 a much more easily controlled weapon, and the use of a muzzle break may or may not significantly improve the already dramatically reduced climb of the Slow Fire M11.

The only other thing I would do in the meantime is to purchase from I.M.A. (International Military Antiques) 3 Lanchester mags (at $90) and start
degreasing them and finishing them. Whenever I go to the range, these are a must. They are twice as reliable as the Sten mags, and hold 50 rounds. In the last KCR sub-gun match, I had three of these mags loaded (Oh yeah, you need to also purchase a Austen mag loader from Sarco, cost $25) and only needed the three that I had to finish (also helped me take 3rd in the Bowling Pin match, because the added firepower gives you that extra few shots).

I hope this helps in your quest to build a Slow Fire M11.

Your Friend In Liberty, Bill

Some Tig welding advice

When Tig welding, use a copper bar as a back-up plate. When I welded my scope mount to my upper, I inserted a square copper bar (made to fit snug), it absorbed any extra heat and would have kept everything smooth if I had burnt through. Just trying to give a little back, if you remember, you helped me through my conversion.

Alan

Also see Urbach M11 slow fire bolt

[stymie]

http://www.funsupply.com/firearms/m11slow.html


http://www.funsupply.com/Firearms/urbach.html

Urbach slow fire bolt for the M11 These comments were taken from my Tech Forum. I have not tested the bolt myself and have no opinion on it. James Kitching

Posted by Wild Bill on January 31, 1998 at 18:58:38:

In Reply to: Quality/Functionality of Urbach bolt for M-11/9 posted by Chris G on January 30, 1998 at 14:53:21:

Chris, I had a Urbach M11/9 bolt for my SWD M11/9 prior to converting the gun to my MACMATCH Ready Slow-Fire design. I bought this bolt with the original intent of slowing the gun down and retaining the original look of the gun (much like you). Unfortunately, my experience with this bolt was, to say the least, problematic. When I first got the bolt, I was very impressed with the quality and workmanship put into the bolt. After going to the range and blasting through about 100 rounds, I noticed that the rear part of the ejection port of the upper receiver was flaring out. This flaring out of the ejection port was due to brass not being fully ejected from the bolt (the brass were also permanently damaged, with a half-moon crush on one side). I assumed that the inefficient ejection of the brass was the result of the heavier/slower bolt. I decided that I would "live with it" as time had quickly run out, for I was entered in the Machine Gun News 10th Anniversary SMG Competition. Unfortunately, this was a BIG MISTAKE. Half-way through the competition the bolt failed to properly eject a round and re-chambered the empty BACKWARDS!!! Obviously this was the end of my day.

After getting back home, decided to do some tests with the bolt using another upper that I had recently purchased from MAC. I found that the bolt still failed to eject the rounds properly. I checked the extractor and it appeared fine, but I did notice that the ejector rod hole was not properly sized towards its exit at the bolt face. At this point I sent the bolt back to Murray Urbach for repairs. After numerous unanswered calls and several letters later I got a replacement bolt back about two months later. Frustrated, I sold the bolt immediately.

Now, I know of many people who have had very good experiences with Mr. Urbach's products, and it easily could have been that I got the "lemon" and his services were, at that time "suffering", but I can tell you I will never have one again. In addition to the problems I mentioned above, I am unsure of Urbach's claim that the bolt slows the guns rate of fire down to around 700-800 rpm (essentially MP-5 speed). I thought the bolt was much less effective. In fact, a colleague of mine PACT timed his M11 w/Urbach bolt and found the ROF to be around 1000 rpm. That is not a substantial change in the ROF compared to the factory bolt's ROF of around 1200 rpm.

My suggestion to you is to put your $250-300 you were going to spend on an Urbach Bolt, and invest it in the necessary parts and build your own Slow-Fire M11/9. If you need a detailed plan on how to build a Slow-Fire M11/9, please e-mail me. Slow fire M11 instructions

Your Friend in Liberty, Bill

Edward Thomas Brady

A few months ago I had a Class 3 Dealer and good friend, who I do a lot of business with, and I TRUST 100%, and who is a good business person, send me a Murray Urbach "slow fire" bolt to try out, he got several in from Urbach, after a "lot of time and trouble", but that another story, he just wanted me to "... give it a test run ED and let me know" in my M11-9, my cost was only $175.00 and I was free to return the Urbach bolt, with no questions asked, I put the bolt into the M11-9, and in a few weeks sent him the funds. I still have the "Urbach Bolt" in my M11-9 and I have no problems with the M11-9 or paying the cost of the bolt.

These are my personal thoughts on the Urbach "slow fire" bolt.

Like Bill I was also "...very impressed with the quality and workmanship (Urbach) put into the bolt.

Also like Bill, would I NOT spend the money or tell a customer to buy a Urbach bolt. Was the ROF reduced v the cost of the bolt? IMHO, not $175.00 worth. My gun runs 100% now, even better then when it came from the factory, so the bolt stays, its just not worth the time to find the original factory bolt in the arms room. All in all, I think Bill might have got a "lemon" from Urbach.

As always Bill is %100 on the Class 3 issues. That my .02.

The M11-9 retail price is Between $500.00 and $600.00, I would spend my money on a extra 1000 round of FMJ 9mm before I would buy a "SPECIAL bolt"

For my money I would buy a STEN Mk II over the M11-9, the retail price is about $1,000.00 for a transferable STEN MK II, and the parts kits are only $100.00 in SIGN.

Then why did I get ten (10) NIB M11-9 in inventory last week, they are easy to get and the price is very low. You just get what you pay for, most of the time, that is!

Have fun, shoot enjoy the guns, while you still can that what its all about..........

Edward Thomas Brady FFL Dealer Class 3 325 Green ST Fayetteville, NC 28301

[SubGunFan]

Stymie, thanks for that "in depth" post about MACs, but I noticed a few "errors" on your post......

1. The Ingram model M10 was designed in California, not Georgia. When WerBell met Gordan Ingram and his M10, he brought Mr. Ingram to Georgia.

2. In your suppressor section, you call the wipe caps "nomex wipes". Nomex is the material used to make the cloth covering on suppressors so not to burn your hands. The wipe caps are made of neoprene.

SubGunFan

[stymie]

Dr. William Ehringer & I have given him due credit.

The *prototype* Model 10 was originally conceived & designed in 1964 while Ingram was employed by the Erquiaga Arms Co. in the City of Industry, California. It was full-auto only & used STEn mags. Early guns were not threaded for a suppressor. This is from Frank Iannamico in "U.S. Submachineguns".

I believe that WerBell brought Gordon Ingram to MAC to further develop what we now know as the PS MAC10 system which included a dedicated SIONICS two stage suppressor. The select-fire mechanism was perfected with the help of Jim Leatherwood.

Ehringer probably had a *brainfart* when he referred to NOMEX & WAX wipes when we know that neoprene was the material used.
;)

[shadeone]

just keepin this at the top....

anyone else got anything to add to this as far as articles or ANY other tech info?

also, when can we expect this tuff to be put on the actual reference library?

last thing, i have 4 different pdf files of different manuals for cobray and MAC firearms, shall i post them here?

shade

[RoverDave]

send me the .pdf files and I'll put links to them on the main mac10talk.com page. Send to librarian@uzitalk.com