WTK: Military uses of the MAC.

[ANATION]

Has any military agency, in the US or abroad, ever adopted the MAC or M11 for specific use? I assume, and perhaps incorrectly, that SF units have MACs at their disposal if they felt the mission required a lightweight, high cycling subgun for CQC. Or, in the latter case scenario, would they just pick an MP5K or Mini Uzi? Just curious. Thanks guys.

BTW: Love the boards.

[chili17]

I know the Israels used them with suppressors for a raid and that seal team six used them for some stuff and a couple of SOG guys used them. I don't think anybody used them in any quanity though. Mostley very mission specific stuff.

This sounds like Stymie territory.

[stymie]

... & 50 SWD M10s for SEAL TEAM use.
Some of the weapons utilized stainless steel barrels & bolts.
SEAL TEAM operators also used M11/.380s with zytel mags in Kuwait during Operation Desert Storm.

M10s were also used by MARINE FORCE RECON.

Ingram weapons saw limited use during the Vietnam War.

Shipments went to England, the Netherlands, Mexico, Israel, Brazil, Guatemala, Portugal, Honduras, Oman & South Korea.

Even the FBI & Secret Service have them in inventory.

[ELVIS]

I know SEALs used em....hated em too...not a gun made for "water ops" I guess....said they jammed while shooting from a bouncing Zodiak....MP5K or PDW was choice for small SMG. That said they make a great gun to use if you wanted someone to think the Mossad did it. 25-30 yrs ago anyway. I think the Mossad uses the Steyr TMP now. SEALs treat guns like Hells Angels treat woman..Kick the shit out of em and leave them rusted, busted, and broke.

[MG Stocks.com]

I have a bad photocopy of an extensive military test of the MAC. I may trust Dave to scan it in if he is interested. Pretty sad really, all the guns had bad welds they sent, at least one stock broke while firing, etc.

You think that for a military test they would cherry pick guns but I guess not.

[Trigger]

The M-11 380 was bought for the seals back in the seventies. It was a Goverment cotract gun. It had a crome bolt barrel two 36 rd and a 20rd crome mags to go with them. A few of them got in to the register. I have one it is an RPB, Marietta over stamp. Unfortnatly I have only 1 of the 36 rd mags.

[Renegade]

The single most famous use of the MAC by any elite force was the use of the MAC by the the Israelis in the Raid at Entebbe.

[stymie]

Originally posted by MG Stocks.com
I have a bad photocopy of an extensive military test of the MAC. I may trust Dave to scan it in if he is interested. Pretty sad really, all the guns had bad welds they sent, at least one stock broke while firing, etc.

You think that for a military test they would cherry pick guns but I guess not.

Frank Iannamico has a section devoted to the Aberdeen Proving Ground MAC tests. Failures were usually attributed to prototype guns... not *ringers* & results were based on 45,127 rds of ammo fired from 90 smgs (30 of each caliber).

It's an excellent reference work & a great read!

[Matt Bracken]

East coast SEALs (I was one) used MAC-10s in 9mm from the 70s until the mid 80s.

Before that, they used a variety, including "greasee guns" (still on the ST2 team logo) S&W Model 76 (I'm guessing on the number) SMGs, Swedish K's etc.

The MACs with the rubber covered Sionics suppressors were the only SMGs in use by SEALs in the early 80s when I was there. We used to say they were great for a shootout in a telephone booth. Could also be used as a hammer to drive in tent stakes, we said. (That's a joke, sort of.)

Very accurate up to about ten meters. Trigger like crap. But they shot, and were fun, and compact.

If you remember the classic Redford flick 'Three Days of the Condor" the hit in the office was a classic utilization of the MAC-10. "Delivery men" use the concealable weapons to infiltrate, and then mow down unarmed office workers at close range. Perfect use of that weapon.

In South America, they were often used for motorcycle hits. THe shooter is on the back of a fast rice burner, and whacks the target in the sedan after pulling alongside. What other SMG fits under your jacket, then sprays 30 rounds in a few seconds? Perfect use, again.

Once the SEALs got the MP5s in the mid 80s, the MACs were relegated to the junkyard of forgotten guns. I don't know if they're still back in the armory, with the grease guns, Swedish Ks. Chinese AK47s, and of course, the Stoners.

[cookie]

There you have it, from the horse's mouth. ;)

[Matt Bracken]

PS: I never ever saw a single MAC-11 in .380 used by SEAL teams. For very quiet work, we used a S&W Model 39 adapted to take a "hush puppy" suppressor with old fashioned rubber disc innards which were replaced for each use.

[timgunfreak]

The Australian Special Air Service (SAS) tested a very limited number of PS Macs in the early 70's, and considered them junk, and they were passed on to movie ordnance companies. In the state I live in Queensland, probably the most gun law friendly state in Australia, if can call it that, there is one (1) registered full auto Mac in private hands, and one (1) registered semi auto Mac in private hands. The semi auto is MINE :-)

[Matt Bracken]

Me and Mac circa 1982,
Fort AP Hill VA.

http://matthewbracken.web.aplus.net/authorpic2.jpg

[RoverDave]

Originally posted by MG Stocks.com
I have a bad photocopy of an extensive military test of the MAC. I may trust Dave to scan it in if he is interested. Pretty sad really, all the guns had bad welds they sent, at least one stock broke while firing, etc.

You think that for a military test they would cherry pick guns but I guess not.

Michael, I'll talk to your more about it on email. Lets see if we can work something out to make it available to the members here.

[ETLES, LLC]

I'd appreciate seeing that test myself, if possible RoverDave.

Thanks, Matt for sharing that info. I'd heard the rumor of the MACs use before, but it is nice to hear it from someone with firsthand experience. Nice pic.

My Ingram M10 .45, circa '73, is still one of my favorite subguns.
I installed a flip front grip and mini Uzi stock from Practical Solutions and they really bring it up to it's potential.:cool

[CIB]

Did South Africa or Argentina use the M11? I've seen mags for the M11 that claimed to be South African and Argentine of origin.

[Matt Bracken]

Tex762:
SEALs carried MACs when they really didn't expect to get into a gunfight, but rather needed to concentrate on climbing and infiltraion/concealability. For example, ship boarding at sea. Special bungee cord harnesses were made which kept the gun against the chest, so both arms could be used for climbing.

If the gun was employed intentionally, it would be at close range, by surprise, such as (for example) on the bridge of the ship they just boarded. Otherwise, if the SEALs were compromised on the way in, the weapon would be used to put out a lot of bullets fast as part of a peeloff or other method of beating feet rapidly. In neither case was their any emphasis on long range accuracy.

The MP5 clearly outshines the MAC in every category, but the MAC filled a niche for a decade or so. And for a motorcycle hit or similar operation, it's still a VERY formidable weapon!

I never fired the .45 version, much less without the suppressor to hang onto. How controllable is it without the suppressor?

[ETLES, LLC]

"How controllable is it without the suppressor?"

Not nearly as controlable without the suppessor. The added weight really helps. But, with a good quality solid forward grip and buttstock, it is far better than the old factory strap and wire stock. One other addition is a screw on slotted compensator, it seems to help also.
Like you say, it's job is to lay out 30 rds quickly at close quarters. With just a couple of minor add ons it is greatly improved for a wee bit further.

[Matt Bracken]

Hey, it's great for what it is!

[Sharkherder]

Originally posted by Matt Bracken
Hey, it's great for what it is!

Hey Matt I recently had an idea that they should give MACs to the guys in Iraq. Not to special forces, seals or any of you guys. But rather to guys who drive humvees, tanks and trucks and such. That way they've got something to aim out the window and return fire when those jack asses over there try to ambush them.

What do you think about that? I figure the MP5 is a little too big for the task, plus it's expensive and it would be hard to get them out to all the guys in a reasonable amount of time. Macs though could be produced really quickly and could be kept on the dashboard of the vehicle until needed.

Your thoughts?

[Matt Bracken]

Shark, I don't think MACs are accurate or reliable enough even for that mission. Something like the new machine pistol the Marines are looking at, in that high vel 4.7 mm round might be the ticket. It's an HK design, sort of looks like a mini Uzi. WIth a collabsing stock and a holosight, it might be the ticket.

[Sharkherder]

Originally posted by Matt Bracken
Shark, I don't think MACs are accurate or reliable enough even for that mission. Something like the new machine pistol the Marines are looking at, in that high vel 4.7 mm round might be the ticket. It's an HK design, sort of looks like a mini Uzi. WIth a collabsing stock and a holosight, it might be the ticket.

Yeah I had thought of that. But you know a bird in the hand right.....

I think it would take a long time to get a whole new system through supply.

Do you have any experience with the Steyr TMP? Maybe that would work. I read an article recently which stated that a Swiss firm had purchased the design and the design equipment and is now producing it. Since it's 9mm it would probably be easier to get fielded.

Just a thought.

[Matt Bracken]

I doubt that any military down to Paraguay's would approve the MAC design for general issue today. Nover shot the steyer you mentioned...

[Sharkherder]

Originally posted by Matt Bracken
I doubt that any military down to Paraguay's would approve the MAC design for general issue today. Nover shot the steyer you mentioned...

Matt you got to think outside of the box. Just consider the concept of driving around Baghdad and spraying down various individuals with a MAC-11 from the inside of a humvee.

You can see the obvious appeal of the concept. Besides no rifle is gonna be accurate if you are sticking it out the window and firing one handed on full auto.

[Bunker Hill]

That was actually one of the original intents behind the MAC design - to replace the M3 Greasegun for tank personel use.

[Zoomie]

I thought that was the idea behind the FN p-90?

[dawg180]

Call me crazy, but I thought the job of a driver was to concentrate on driving, not on shooting down Tangos.

But I am just a fat, dumb, happy civvy who is stateside, so I may be wrong...

Originally posted by Sharkherder
Hey Matt I recently had an idea that they should give MACs to the guys in Iraq. Not to special forces, seals or any of you guys. But rather to guys who drive humvees, tanks and trucks and such. That way they've got something to aim out the window and return fire when those jack asses over there try to ambush them.

What do you think about that? I figure the MP5 is a little too big for the task, plus it's expensive and it would be hard to get them out to all the guys in a reasonable amount of time. Macs though could be produced really quickly and could be kept on the dashboard of the vehicle until needed.

Your thoughts?

[rrrgcy]

Florida's Broward County Sheriff's Office SWAT team used MAC 10s back in the very early 1980s. Confirmed by a now very high ranking ex-swat officer with BSO who actually used/trained with these..