Stock has been demilled. No longer a stock. Just like a demilled mg receiver.Originally Posted by Glockdude1
I wanna see if anyone here can figure out how to demill the strap
Stock has been demilled. No longer a stock. Just like a demilled mg receiver.
I wanna see if anyone here can figure out how to demill the strap
I agree with you Vegas!And I agree that it WAS a stock and is legal in it's present and permanent configuration and attachment to the receiver. The strap "thing" is stupid and I don't think it's a foreward grip in the sense most of us consider one, but I personally wouldn't want to be the BATF test case with my luck. They don't have a sense of humor.
Why don't you write them a letter asking for clarification?
Here is my final thoughts, by someone who also doesnt care if it is or isnt.
The smg guns were all supplied with the strap.
The smg manual showed the strap to be a handle.
None of the semis were ever shipped with a strap.
Daniels always pushed the limits with legalities, but did not offer the strap on semis.
Just some food for thought. carry on
Last edited by haterade; 02-20-2008 at 04:21 PM.
Stock has been demilled. No longer a stock. Just like a demilled mg receiver.
I wanna see if anyone here can figure out how to demill the strap
Lets see...a demilled strap...that would be a...two or more straps, only shorter...?
Seen a MAC manual stated and illustrated it was a front hand strap for control during firing. The jury says it aint no sling
post a pic of that page in the manual.
Its not a grip. Its more of a sling.
The can is an old AWC unit, no wipes or spiral baffles, just pressed aluminum baffles but it is a 2 stage can.
The gun is a PS gun, no over stamp, but the upper has been swapped out at some point, and the pin probably was at that time. The bolt is original PS, and it is an early number L mold bolt, but the upper has been lost I'm afraid.
I didn't learn all of that until after I bought it.
I don't know when the barrel retention roll pin was moved from the middle of the upper, to the bottom of the upper. On most PS gun pics I see, the roll pin is visible, and on mine and others, it is drilled lower, and hidden when the gun is assembled. That is what got me to start looking into the history of the gun and so on.
I would get a letter from ATF Technical approving that. Several "makers" of pistol style semi copies of SMGs have stocks on the guns, however the stocks are closed, and welded closed and non-removable. If I were you I'd CYA and check, before letting info like that rip onto the internet.I am surprised no has complained about me using a cut down SMG stock for my MPA 10. It too is totaly legal because it does not extend, nor does it open. (I cut the rails down to 1/2").
My Mac has been that way for over 3 years. It is perfectly legal. The only question I get at the range about it, is "Can I shoot it?"
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Glockdude1.........................
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Eh, its his call, we've voiced our concerns. Now, we need far far more MAC pr0n in this picture thread.
I just check manuals #1 and #2, wasn't stated or verbalized in either. I was wrong in what I thought I had seen.
I'll continue to respectfully disagree.
If you do not hold onto it, it will get shot. Hold onto it, and it doesn't get rounds punched through it. Hold it, and you can control the weapon better.
It is to small to sling it to anything other than your hand. Carry it like that, and the muzzle is pointing right at you. If it was intended to be some sort of sling, they would have mounted at the rear.
The factory sling mounted to the front & rears sight holes, which were there for that reason, to mount the sling.
I'm sure it's a grip, I just am not sure if it's NFA.
You can call it want you want. Its semantics.
However, the BATFE has reference samples of semi auto and SMG MAC's.
Since the semi auto version was not sold originally with a foregrip strap nor a stock -- and it was marketed as a pistol; you run the risk of being in violation of National Firearm Act laws with your current configuration. Only SBR's, AOW, MG's can have that configuration.
The nylon grip was marketed as a grip for a SMG not as a sling. The BATFE is not stupid.
Examples:
If I cut down a AR15 stock and made it non-collapsible and put it on a semi-auto AR-15 pistol, I would have created an SBR.
Additionally, if put a nylon foregrip on the front end of the semi AR-15 pistol, that would also be classified as a AOW.
Listen to the words from the wise here on this forum and save yourself from possible jail/fines -- or don't.
ATF has made the decision that a handgun (but not a machine gun, since a machine gun is not also an AOW) with more than one hand grip at an angle to the bore is an AOW.
Last edited by Hk94; 02-21-2008 at 01:29 PM.
"The gun business is a cruel and shallow money trench,a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs.There is also a negative side."
Having a strap (anchored by one point), on a pistol is not considered a 2nd grip that is non parallel to the bore.
Definition of a sling: "A looped rope, strap, or chain for supporting, cradling, or hoisting something"
Having a strap, such as that on an M10, is not used as a second pistol grip. If you use it that way, plan on shooting your hand one day.
Its intended to be used as a sling to support muzzle rise, cupped with your other hand, on top of the hand holding the pistol grip. If used properly, that muzzle will not rise on full auto.
Its a supporting sling. End of story. You guys can think what you want.
Last edited by Energizer; 02-21-2008 at 02:21 PM.
Actually only the ATF can end the story. Can you post some of the ATF references you're basing this claim on?
Support muzzle rise? That's a strange use of the word "support", done solely to tie into your definition of sling. I think a more common description is that it's used to control muzzle rise, and that's why the ATF would say that it serves the same purpose as a rigid vertical foregrip.
It's true that you can think what you want. It's also true that some lines of thinking can land you in jail.
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Can you post any cases where the ATF has done anything regarding a strap, specifically?
I don't have to worry about it either way, as I don't have a semi-auto with a strap like this.
However, proper use of the strap is to use it like I stated. Its more of a support sling, to control muzzle rise (by supporting the firearm)-- just like you control a dog on a leash... its not another grip. Try to use it as a single grip and you could shoot your hand. That's not the intended use of the strap. People who use it like that shoot all over the place-- its very hard to control that way.
You want an ATF "ruling" for your specific case-- write them a letter, but that letter will only apply to you.
This is how you use the strap, LIKE A SLING:
<-- CLICK HERE FOR VIDEO
Last edited by Energizer; 02-21-2008 at 04:33 PM.
Everyone is well aware of the correct way to use the strap (putting hand through it and grabbing gun). That was never the argument.
As far as prosecution examples, have none.
Rhetorically, please furnish ATF prosecutions to standalone charges of 922 (putting pg on mak-90 etc).
I dont care. where's the pictures?
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Notice the Strap... it's damn dangerous - I would not even try to use it like a grip - especially without an extension - I'd be missing fingers.
Debating things like this and BATFE positions is horribly retarded. AT BEST you will be able to provide proof of a specific BATFE standing on a position. EVEN IF you can provide proof, that doesnt mean jack shit as they routinely reverse decisions and change definitions.
Let the man do whatever it is he wants, its his freedom not ours.
the BATF will look at it from the most logical standpoint.
if it did not COME WITH IT...then it doesn't belong
the stock is still considered a stock, even though it only measures a half inch.
i've seen a guy with an Ar15 pistol get in trouble while at the range because he had a home made "pad" for the rear of his tube and they were saying because it didn't come on the gun, because it's home made, it's illegal, because it can act like a stock.
same with the strap, if it only came on the SMG, then it was meant to be HELD.
because it didn't come on the pistol semi auto, it will also be considered as a grip by the BATF.
my personal opinion, get a Trust and then get whatever the hell you want on your guns...jail time ain't worth all them accessories.
Is this still the official MAC picture thread?
Last edited by strobro32; 02-23-2008 at 10:04 AM.
I dont care. where's the pictures?
[IMG]
Notice the Strap... it's damn dangerous - I would not even try to use it like a grip - especially without an extension - I'd be missing fingers.
I personally think the front strap is a waste of time. Installed on a OBS or SA MPA, you have effectively converted (without documentation) the weapon into an AOW, covered under the NFA. This carries some STEEP fines.
Draw up a Form 1, attach your $5 and mail the sucker off. This will keep you out of hot water. The ATF, DOES consider the front strap a 'front grip'.
Every C2 SOT you will speak too will agree on this.
The front strap is supposed to be used by the supporting hand put through the strap and placed over the shooting hand like a two handed pistol grip (at least thats how i've seen it done every time).
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