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View Poll Results: Is the fa uzi still a militarily relevant weapon?

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  • Yes: It's still the war horse of old

    183 78.21%
  • No: What, no flashlight mount?

    40 17.09%
  • Undecided: I'll vote after reading the entire thread

    11 4.70%
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Thread: Is the uzi a militarily relevant weapon?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnywitt
    Mr. AK did not copy the MP-44 design because the MP-44 is a roller block and his AK is a gas piston (funny how shit comes full circle). He might have copied the CONCEPT though after being shot at with the MP-44.
    Not so much full circle... The Nazi who invented that rifle (and the Stg-45), Ludwig Vorgrimmler, escaped to Spain after the German surrender. The Spanish gave him a position at the National Arms Factory, where he updated the design (i.e. made it more mass-producible). Hence, the CETME was born. Later, when Germany was allowed to restart their arms industry, they purchased the design from Vorgrimmler, and the H&K family of rifles were born.

    BTW: Mr. AK= Mikhail Kalashnikov

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick7.62
    Not so much full circle... The Nazi who invented that rifle (and the Stg-45), Ludwig Vorgrimmler, escaped to Spain after the German surrender. The Spanish gave him a position at the National Arms Factory, where he updated the design (i.e. made it more mass-producible). Hence, the CETME was born. Later, when Germany was allowed to restart their arms industry, they purchased the design from Vorgrimmler, and the H&K family of rifles were born.

    BTW: Mr. AK= Mikhail Kalashnikov
    Yeah, I couldn't spell it.
    What I meant is that Mr. AK got the whole assualt rifle idea from Lord Voldemort and now it has come to HK to make piston carbines. Funny how things work out.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnywitt
    Yeah, I couldn't spell it.
    What I meant is that Mr. AK got the whole assualt rifle idea from Lord Voldemort and now it has come to HK to make piston carbines. Funny how things work out.
    I always got the sense that "Mr. AK" just simplified an already too-complex design.

    Germans are notorious for overly engineered things, and Russians for "simple-as-a-brick" stuff.
    Last edited by prktoil; 06-27-2008 at 07:12 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnywitt
    Yeah, I couldn't spell it.
    What I meant is that Mr. AK got the whole assualt rifle idea from Lord Voldemort and now it has come to HK to make piston carbines. Funny how things work out.
    Yeah, that is funny.

    And no to pktoil. The AK and the Stg-44/MP-44 are really different internally. I don't think ol' Mikhail even had access to a MP-44 when he was designing the AK (I saw an interview with him on the History Channel where he said as much). Externally, they look alike, and the intermediate cartridge idea is all German. In fact the 7.92 Kurz and the 7.62x39 are very similar ballistically.

    And yes, the Germans could make a pair of scissors with 14 parts.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick7.62
    Yeah, that is funny.

    And no to pktoil. The AK and the Stg-44/MP-44 are really different internally. I don't think ol' Mikhail even had access to a MP-44 when he was designing the AK (I saw an interview with him on the History Channel where he said as much). Externally, they look alike, and the intermediate cartridge idea is all German. In fact the 7.92 Kurz and the 7.62x39 are very similar ballistically.

    And yes, the Germans could make a pair of scissors with 14 parts.
    The Russians are also notorious for denying their open efforts at copying foreign stuff....

    It is reasonable (imho) that any Soviet weapons designer immediately after WW2 would have access to German weapons on which to brainstorm, and it is reasonable that any designer worth his salt would deny copying a foreign design.

    But....we shall never know.

  6. #66
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    What's sad is he died a poor old man in a shitty one room apartment in Moscow. That's Communism for ya: You design the most relevant, widely used, most produced weapon in the history of the fucking world (!!!!) and you died poor and alone.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick7.62
    What's sad is he died a poor old man in a shitty one room apartment in Moscow. That's Communism for ya: You design the most relevant, widely used, most produced weapon in the history of the fucking world (!!!!) and you died poor and alone.
    +1

    The AK is definitely a classic. He deserved much more.

  8. #68
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    MK is gonna be surprised to know he is dead.

    Apparently, no one told him.

    http://www.deadoraliveinfo.com/dead....hnikov+Mikhail
    "Go sell crazy somewhere else... we're all stocked up here."

  9. #69
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    I thought he recently started pushing his own brand of vodka.

    And four folks voted to decide after reading the entire thread? That doesn't even make sense.

  10. #70
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    With all due respect to opinions previously expressed in this thread, in the April, 2007 issue of Small Arms Review in an article by noted firearms expert Christopher R. Bartocci there is a detailed "Comparison of the Soviet AK47 to the German StG44" (as the article notes, the StG44 was initially called the MP44). To quote the article beginning at page 88, "In comparing the StG44, the AK47 uses exactly the same gas operated mechanism and the same gas piston type type as the StG44. The AK47 uses a different locking mechanism than the StG44 and the AK47 uses a rotating bolt that some believe had its origins come from the M1 Garand." Again at page 95. "The gas system of the AK47 is identical to that of the StG44."

    Other similarities and differences are detailed in the article and illustrated in the photos. The author concludes on page 96, "Kalashnikov undoubtedly took the concept of the StG44 and refined it to a more simple and reliable rifle."

  11. #71
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    The StG44 doesn't HAVE a gas system. It's a roller block design like an HK.

  12. #72
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    Johnny,

    Again, with all due respect, I believe you are thinking of the StG45 which is indeed a roller block design. The StG44 is, however, gas operated. Please see, for example, the respective descriptions on Wikipedia.

    MHO, YMMV. etc.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondAmend
    Johnny,

    Again, with all due respect, I believe you are thinking of the StG45 which is indeed a roller block design. The StG44 is, however, gas operated. Please see, for example, the respective descriptions on Wikipedia.

    MHO, YMMV. etc.
    Your right.

  14. #74
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    I think as long as the target subject isn't wearing body armor, the Uzi is just as viable a weapon for it's intended purpose as it ever was. Rifle caliber weapons in the hands of enemies have been around since before the Uzi ever left the drawing board. Lucky for us, allied soldiers on the battlefield are the only ones who have so far adopted body armor as a standard issue item. When the day comes that the bad guys adopt armor as well, the Uzi will be relegated to the duty of "police only" weapon, effective only for engaging evil doers amongst the general populance.

  15. #75
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    Thats pretty funny about Mikhail being dead, and being poor. He has gotten several honors and awards from Russia, even back when it was the USSR, he was given the title defender of the motherland or something. He also traveled alot, probably with government funding, Id think he is sitting real pretty with a Dacha on a lake and a house in Moscow or Ishevsk. He also DOES have his own brand of vodka, AND, after 1991, he has successfully helped on other gun designs, which im sure he was paid for, and quite well indeed.

    Funny how stuff gets made up all the time, vomit of the mouth I suppose.
    Also, I would tend to agree that the Kalashnikov was NOT a copy of the STG44. There WERE gas piston driven designs other than the STG44, a gun that was put into service in relatively limited numbers, AFTER the kalashinkov type 1 was already pretty much finished.

    I will look up some solid info on this though. im not particularly sure about which guns he DID use, but im fairly certain it WASNT the sturmgewehr. Also, there was another russian, who came up with part of the design, if he copied anyone, it was HIM.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffJWC
    Thats pretty funny about Mikhail being dead, and being poor. He has gotten several honors and awards from Russia, even back when it was the USSR, he was given the title defender of the motherland or something. He also traveled alot, probably with government funding, Id think he is sitting real pretty with a Dacha on a lake and a house in Moscow or Ishevsk. He also DOES have his own brand of vodka, AND, after 1991, he has successfully helped on other gun designs, which im sure he was paid for, and quite well indeed.
    I did a bit of research on Mikhail, and I was poorly informed... he is alive! Old as hell, but alive.

    I'm sure after perestroika, he did alright financially.

  17. #77
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    Yeah sorry wrong convention. But hey you knew what I was talking about. Any way lets take the current world situation. The radical terroist Muslims don't think like we do. They do care about the wound to troops to carry your ass off ratio. They are in it to kill as many people as they can. The AK-47 and the IED is their weapons of choice. If they wound you and are able to finish you off guess what? Yes the UZI has my vote the Israelis still use it today along with M16's, Galil's and what ever else they have at there disposal. Like someone else said 9mm will kill you just as dead. Hell I've killed coyotes with a pellet gun. You use what it takes. The Uzi has proven itself time and time again. The Israelis have used it in most all their major conflicts, except when they were slinging stones.
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  18. #78
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    not any more! Body armor is every where now

  19. #79
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    The UZI SMG entered IDF service in the mid 50's and for all intensive purposes, mechanically never really changed in over 50 years. I would be very surprised if some of today's designs are still around in another 50 years. Things like the HK MP7 or FN P90. The UZI is still the standard that all SMG's are compared to. Several major middle east wars, Entebbe, and Lebanon, the UZI is just a tool in a tool box, and it is a very good tool.

  20. #80
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    I would depend on a full size UZI with 124Gr NATO ammo most any time in a close battle situation. Plenty of stopping power. Good for tight close environment combat. Immune to dirt and sand like the AK47. Easy to control and direct fire.

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