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Thread: South African R series of weapons information thread (lots of pictures)

  1. #481
    Registered User lcastillo's Avatar
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    Ruski5181 Thanks!

    Ruski5181, Many thanks for your help with your contribution here on Galil Talk. I got your package! Lou
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  2. #482
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    R-Series Poly mags, Is stamp a factory code or the year produced

    Hey Guys. I pose a question to you. I have heard the argument that the codes on R series poly mags could be either the plant number where it was made or the year of production. So I recently recieved a magazine that wants to be a 86 or a 87 since the number 7 is stamped over the number 6. So could this missprint mean it could be a date code since a factory would only print one set of numbers all the time for the factory?
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    Last edited by lcastillo; 06-12-2012 at 11:20 PM.

  3. #483
    Registered User lcastillo's Avatar
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    Upgraded magazines for R series.

    Thanks to Ruski5181 and Adipose I have two R Series magazines that I can illustrate the upgrade that was made on later model R Series magazines. The upgrade consisted of a cut-out area or relief-cut that allowed the bolt face to clear the back of the magazines lower feed area. Apperantley on the older R magazines the bolt face was slamming into the back area of the magazine feed area and fracturing it. In the picture you can see the 1980's magazine without the relief cut on the left and on the right is the 1990's -later magazine with the relief-cut to prevent the rupture of the magazine.
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  4. #484
    Registered User Ady's Avatar
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    Hi Lou

    The two policemen posing in your pic on post 477 above look like trainee constables to me, they have a white stripe on their shoulder, looks like they are patrolling in a township. AFAIK trainee constables aren't allowed to be armed. Maybe Ruski can help us here. Perhaps they just posing for the photo?

    The pic of the fighter in post 476 looks like he could be a game ranger. We are having a huge problem with rhino poaching recently, so much so that the SANDF have got involved and are patrolling game reserves. The SA government also gave game rangers R1 (FN-FAL) rifles with loads of ammunition to help them, perhaps R4 rifles more recently. The game rangers used to patrol with old 303 rifles and were outgunned by poachers armed with AK-47's.

    The pic of the R4 in post 479 looks like it has a Galil stock fitted and the pic of the date on the ploy mag above, it has been mentioned on this thread before that the stamp isn't a date stamp, but in fact a mould number. I'm not sure how many manufacturers there were that made the poly mags. I thaught that LIW made all the components for the R / LM series rifles. I found out recently that another manufacturer made the poly stocks.

    As always Lou, very nice pics.
    Last edited by Ady; 06-13-2012 at 02:36 AM.

  5. #485
    Registered User ruski5181's Avatar
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    Hey all,

    Lou, only a pleasure bud, hope the package got to you in tact, as it took about 2 months to get there! Glad you like, very interesting about the relief cut, i have never seen a relief cut mag in the police.

    Ady, you are slightly correct, Student constables level 1 as are in the pic may carry sidearms, as all of us need to be armed, however they may not drive vehicles or carry R'5's or shotguns, however,times have changed recently wth atm bombings etc, basically, your passnger needs to carry an r5 and on rural patrol, one of you must have an r5, so... its well possible they were allowed to book those out, they are trained in all their weapons and street survial at college nowadays, (unlike selebi recruits) so, its not so scary.

    Very curious about the guy with the R4, looks like a crimibnal to me, lol, could be a soldier out of uniform, cause sanparks is semi privatised, they arnt allowed auto weapons, but then again, the FCA does allow under special circumstances, which rhino pouching should fall under, soo, who knows, i am speculating.

  6. #486
    Registered User Ady's Avatar
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    Hi Ruski

    Thanks for the info, nice to have you back. Lets just hope the new police boss isn't like the last 2!

  7. #487
    Registered User lcastillo's Avatar
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    Samples of broken R Sereis Poly magazines

    Ady, I found the pictures of the broken R Series magazines. Thanks for pointing out the upgrades on the magazines.
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  8. #488
    Registered User lcastillo's Avatar
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    Here is the last one where the retainer tab broke off.
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  9. #489
    Registered User lcastillo's Avatar
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    VEKTOR Belt fed machineguns?

    A friend sent me this DSARMS ad in the November 2002 issue of The Small Arms Review. I have never heard SS77 & MINI SS guns made buy VEKTOR Weapons systems. Is this the same South African VEKTOR Arms?
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  10. #490
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    Italian Licensed Galil

    I was stunned that the Italians made a licensed copy of the Galil thru Vincenzo Bernardelli. From what I understand not many where made. The Italian Goverment still have some in inventory. I wonder if they Italians use these when there are deployments to desert or jungle areas? I know Beretta's AR70/90 series rifles resemble the Galil, could they have taken best practices from the Galil in making this weapon?
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  11. #491
    Registered User lcastillo's Avatar
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    Mystery Rifle in Koevoet vehicle

    Hey Guys I am going to take a wild stab at identifying the unknown rifle in the famous Koevoet picture that Adipose posted on this thread. I believe it is a CZ-2000 LMG? I know the pistol grips could be different and the stock might have been changed a little. But after all "It is Africa". Let me know what you think. Lou
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  12. #492
    Registered User lcastillo's Avatar
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    South African Steel Magazines

    I have reasearched and asked questions from some of the members here on how to identify a South African made steel vs. a IMI Galil steel magazine. From what I understand SA steel magazines are stamped with a date code stamped in a vertical fashion with the date code seperated by a slash (ex: 6/80)

    The IMI Galil produced mags have horizontal stamped numeric codes which has a single number over double digit numbers. What the codes stand for is not really known since IMI out sourced magazine production to different contractors throughout the years.

    Here are some pictures to illustrate the markings between SA and IMI steel mags. I hope this helps anybody looking for original SA made magazines. Lou

    Thanks Adipose for the use of your shit brown mags as a example
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    Last edited by lcastillo; 06-20-2012 at 11:05 PM.

  13. #493
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    Yes, my shit brown mags. Don't forget about the u-shaped weld piece (on front of mag; up by the top) that has a diamond mark on them. The izzy ones has a square front piece. (I'll send you some pics)

  14. #494
    Registered User Ady's Avatar
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    Adipose, my post 381 has a nice pic of the difference between the IMI and SA magazine tabs you speak of.

    Lou, follow this link for some info on the Mini SS and the SS-77. I know you can't beleive everything Wikipedia tells you, but its some info at least.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vektor_SS-77

    In the late 1970s, South Africa was involved in an international controversy over apartheid and the South African Border War in Angola. As a result, it was subject to an international arms embargo and had to, out of necessity, design and manufacture its own weapons.[1] The SS-77 was developed to replace the FN MAG. It was designed in 1977 by Richard Joseph Smith and Soregi, hence the name "SS-77". "SS" for Smith and Soregi, "77" for 1977, the year it was designed.

    Mini-SS

    In the early 1990s, a version, the Mini-SS LMG, chambered in 5.5645mm NATO was introduced. LIW also manufactured kits to convert existing SS-77 to the Mini-SS. Changes include the weight decrease from 9.6 to 8.26 kg (21 lb 3 oz to 18 lb 3 oz) with a folding bipod and fixed butt.
    What confuses me is that Vektor became Denel Land Systems, i'm just not sure in what year, perhaps after 2002?

    The SS-77 and Mini SS are on the Denel Land Systems website.

    http://www.denellandsystems.co.za/in...pons/SS77.html

    Mini SS

    The MiniSS is a Light Machine Gun with a 5.56mm Calibre, ideal to use in urban warfare. The design is based on the well known SS77, and have approximately 70% common components, making your training, logistical support and maintenance easier. The MiniSS can be converted into a 7.62mm Machine Gun by changing the Barrel, Bolt and Feed Assembly.

    The SS77 can also be converted into 5.56mm by changing the same components. The Barrel is equipped with a Fortex Flash Hider, cooling the Gasses down to a level where there are no signature at night time, depending on the temperature of the Barrel.

    SS77

    Is a 7,62mm General Purpose Machine Gun, light in weight, only 10,3kg. The Machine Gun is well balanced and can even be applied in an assault role if required (ie long grass). The Machine Gun can be stripped without any special tools and easy to maintain. The SS77 does not require barrel change after firing 100 rounds due to overheating, when applied in short bursts you can easily fire 600 rounds before cooling down of the barrel. It can be equipped with a Spade Grip or a Solenoid for remote firing.

    SS77 Compact

    The gun is based on the well known SS77, already in use in many countries worldwide. The main objective was to have a Compact version of a General Purpose Machine Gun for the sole purpose of use in the patrol role, meaning to be able to shoot on the move, but still have the capability to use the Bi-pod, as fitted inside the Pistol Grip. The weight has been significantly reduced to 9.3kg, shortened by 80mm. It is fitted with a telescopic butt, adjustable for the different percentile man. The pistol grip is for better control of shot placement during patrol and has also been equipped with 4 Picatini rails, 3 in front; Pistol Grip, Flash Light, Laser, etc. The SS77 Compact is completely modular and can be tailored to you requirements within the group of DLS Machine Guns.
    No pictures i'm afriad. Nice find Lou.

  15. #495
    Registered User lcastillo's Avatar
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    Dustcover mod?

    Hey guys does anybody know what the modification on this dustcover would be for?
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  16. #496
    Registered User Ady's Avatar
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    Does it not stop the ejected casings from going forward and to the right, but rather landing closer to the shooter?

  17. #497
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    Just a quick note on Ady's post on the SS, great info BTW... i have spent years trying to get a job with one of SA's weapon manufacturers, Vektor bought rights from Lyttelton which was bought by denel which is part owned by BAE and part by sa governemtn and Denel is split into 6 smaller companies, one of which being pmp ammo funnily enough, now Denel land systems being part owned by bae land systems who also sell rights to DTM who make caspers and nyalas are a british owned company who on their website operate in many contries excpet SA... and thats where i lost the stick. but i still would like to work there!

  18. #498
    Registered User lcastillo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruski5181 View Post
    Just a quick note on Ady's post on the SS, great info BTW... i have spent years trying to get a job with one of SA's weapon manufacturers, Vektor bought rights from Lyttelton which was bought by denel which is part owned by BAE and part by sa governemtn and Denel is split into 6 smaller companies, one of which being pmp ammo funnily enough, now Denel land systems being part owned by bae land systems who also sell rights to DTM who make caspers and nyalas are a british owned company who on their website operate in many contries excpet SA... and thats where i lost the stick. but i still would like to work there!
    Ruski, how the hell are you? Doesnt BAE also provide (PMC's) para-military services ( Mercenaries/Contractors) also? I found a Soldier of Fortune magazine dated Spring 1995 with a HUGE article on the SS. I will try to post it here for all to see in the next few days. Good to hear from you! Lou

  19. #499
    Registered User lcastillo's Avatar
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    Denel Land System R4/5 upgrades

    I found some pictures online of some of the proposed changes for the R Series rifle to keep it in action for years to come. It looks like these samples are from a expo to showcase the goods!

    In the first picture of the R4 in the carry case it looks like they used a UTG rail and added a ACOG (I hear the R4's very accurate), They also replaced the folding stock with a MAKO type folder/collapsible stock.

    The second rifle has red-dot system with a scope behind it for additional magnification. I am pretty impressed that the grenade launcher was mounted on the UTG rail. I know that INDUMIL prefers to mount the grenade launcher on the barrel. I pretty much looks like the upgrades on these rifles will be all be bolt on type equipment.

    Ruski & Ady, what gives with the lack of bayonet lugs on these combat rifles? Was there some kind of political BS involved in this decision? Was'nt there a type of bayonet that went over the barrel like the R1's?
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  20. #500
    Registered User Ady's Avatar
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    Lou, bayonets were never issued for the R4/5/6 series rifles. I have seen a picture of a bayonet designed for the R4. It looks exactly like the R1 bayonet, but with a different lockring to fit over the R4 flash hider. I have read that 1000 such bayonets were made by Littleton and are highly collectable.

    I may be wrong, but i think the feeling was that a bayonet in bush warfare was a waste because the enemy was engaged at distances where a bayonet would be useless.

    Below is another type of bayonet i picked up which i think may have been made for the R4, but again never issued. It does not fit my LM5, but i have seen this bayonet mounted on a LM4 for comparison. The bayonet is German made and has Solingen stamped on it.
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