South African R series of weapons information thread (lots of pictures)

[ruski5181]

hahaha, no lou, sticking a double cab bakkie up in electricity wires must take a very very special kinda driver! ROFL!

Hey Lou, on the chopper pics, the first 3 the guys are on a french built 'squirrel' chopper with special rigging for fast rope etc, the other pic you posted sepereatly is what i meant by, if they have prepped or have time, they have just jumped onto the sides of a regular B105 in those cases, they are probably holding on with fingernails through their gloves, usually its a short trip from roadside onto the rooftop or something for a dynamic entry.

The vehicle from my pics would be the RG12 'nyala' although 2 vehicles seem o share this nickname, named after a big buck. the RG12 was designed and built in South Africa as an 'urban patrol vehicle' to replace the ageing and menacing 'Casspir'. The RG12 wen through 4 versions, the version 3 is still being produced here by a private company but the version 4 plans where bought by BAE land systems, and now the Italian, canadian and UAE police us them for crowd control. They are very nicely armoured and comfy. I usually ride commander, but if i get outranked, sitting door operator is great fun too. everything is pneaumatic pressure and the negines are stong, the version 4 is a Iveco truck motor if i recall, turbo Deisel 6 litre. there is loads on Wiki about them. takes a crew of 6 in the bag if you use the gear area for gear, with a commander and a driver up front.

Teh vehicle below that looks like a custom version of the army RG-31, i say custom cause of the open back mounted machine gun design... kinda makes me thinkg that might be the STF one you hear rumours about in the police... no one knows for sure cause of the secrecy surrounding that unit. Either way, they are showing off to the young cops, makin em very jealous! heehehe

Thats Walter looking pistol, if i am correct has the wong markings, maybe Hagar or westcliffe can help me out here, i think those pistols where out of service long before we changed to the SAPS from the SAP.

the first picture is a cool shot, the secon picture is of some very reservist looking fellows, hehehe, sorry to ex PF's out there, but no one buys that kinda gear for themselves except our members! The last picture is of our new success/failure unit, the TRT (Tactical Response Team) 'Selebi boys' modelled on the mobile unitis of the old days and using reaction unit training, these guys are quickly discovering everything they have learnt doesnt work when you meet the new South Afircan Law and Constitution.. they arent going o last much longer. While they where training and getting together units like this, i managed to get myself a helmet and some training,however we where quickly told, no whites are allowed in the unit and especially no reservists, so they stopped us training, but those of u with a brain kept our helmets, its lovely, i used it last friday, hehehe! Most of the helmets we get a refurbed or over supply british military kevlar helmets (in the police) not sure if its a pasgt/M88 style...

[hagar]

Only handguns I ever saw in use was the Manhurin built P1/P38's, and some old 38S&W revolvers. Later on they changed to the Z88. Maybe that was used by plain clothes officers or female detectives, who knows.

[lcastillo]

Ruski, I found another one of the FEG .380 pistols on Gunbroker, In the description the seller said it is used by the South African Detective Bureau for it compactness. They are also Hungarian made as the Browning style Hi-Power the SAPS uses. They can be picked up pretty cheap. I might have to keep my eye out for one for myself. I love guns with Police markings Here is another picture I found.

[lcastillo]

Hey Ruski, In one of the pictures where you are at the range you appear to be shooting a R5 with a ACOG. I am interested in the mount. Do you know what it is? I read that Denel had made mounts for the Vektor R series rifles. Are these mounts in use by the SAPS. I reposted your picture comparing it to picture of Denel mount I saw on the internet.

[ruski5181]

those .380's where before my time, the detectives do use a more compact gun, the one they use now is called a RAP, its a mixture between a sig and a compact USP, its small and takes 10 9mm rounds and is very easily concealable,

That picture is of one of our Prison Services colleagues, he has an R4 with a 'front & rear' mount as far as i know all state issued, so yeah Denel would made them, some guys prefer it to the side mount, all the mounts are army issued, we have to buy them from old soldiers or apply for one from the army. and yeah thats an ACOG, that guy is actually very good, and offered me his spare acog the other day, but still half the price of an entire rifle, i still shoot in B-class 'infantry/general' class.

The picture of the LM5 with all its goodies i have seen before, if i remember correctly the guy custom made that rail out of a M14 rail a torch mount ring and tapped it into his dust cover... some shotist would argue how acurate that is in keeping zero. Cause the gas tube and dust cover are both removable parts from the body of the weapon

[adipose]

those .380's where before my time, the detectives do use a more compact gun, the one they use now is called a RAP, its a mixture between a sig and a compact USP, its small and takes 10 9mm rounds and is very easily concealable,

That picture is of one of our Prison Services colleagues, he has an R4 with a 'front & rear' mount as far as i know all state issued, so yeah Denel would made them, some guys prefer it to the side mount, all the mounts are army issued, we have to buy them from old soldiers or apply for one from the army. and yeah thats an ACOG, that guy is actually very good, and offered me his spare acog the other day, but still half the price of an entire rifle, i still shoot in B-class 'infantry/general' class.

The picture of the LM5 with all its goodies i have seen before, if i remember correctly the guy custom made that rail out of a M14 rail a torch mount ring and tapped it into his dust cover... some shotist would argue how acurate that is in keeping zero. Cause the gas tube and dust cover are both removable parts from the body of the weapon

You are correct; since you both parts do have some clearance; thus giving them some side to side movement. if you notice the pic of the R5; it has a standard Iraeli stock on it.

I also notice that picture of you; you have the rifle resting on a 50 round mag; thus giving you a balanced rest. I see you are using the wider R4/5 sling and I like the riser rest on the stock for your cheek.

[adipose]

You are correct; since you both parts do have some clearance; thus giving them some side to side movement. if you notice the pic of the R5; it has a standard Iraeli stock on it.

I also notice that picture of your colleague; he has the R4 resting on a 50 round mag; thus giving you a balanced rest.

I he is using the wider R4/5 sling like the one you want and I like the riser rest on the stock for your cheek.

[lcastillo]

those .380's where before my time, the detectives do use a more compact gun, the one they use now is called a RAP, its a mixture between a sig and a compact USP, its small and takes 10 9mm rounds and is very easily concealable,

That picture is of one of our Prison Services colleagues, he has an R4 with a 'front & rear' mount as far as i know all state issued, so yeah Denel would made them, some guys prefer it to the side mount, all the mounts are army issued, we have to buy them from old soldiers or apply for one from the army. and yeah thats an ACOG, that guy is actually very good, and offered me his spare acog the other day, but still half the price of an entire rifle, i still shoot in B-class 'infantry/general' class.

The picture of the LM5 with all its goodies i have seen before, if i remember correctly the guy custom made that rail out of a M14 rail a torch mount ring and tapped it into his dust cover... some shotist would argue how acurate that is in keeping zero. Cause the gas tube and dust cover are both removable parts from the body of the weapon

HAha Ruski, I'll put my order in for 2 Denel Front & Rear mounts. I will have to say that both systems look great! I will tell you that my dust cover on my Golani fits so tight that I doubt it would lose zero I have lost a few pints of blood putting that cover back on. At times I have felt like a Mayan King sacrificing my blood to the Ancient Golani Gods

[adipose]

In keeping on the R series subject; here are some photo's showing them in the field.

R4's in a sandstorm / Painted R5 with a plastic mag / R5 with a 50 round mag.

[ruski5181]

Hey adipose, yeah, that guys LM stock is nice, slightly diferent angle. I see our friend from prisons is using a 50 round mag, that would put me too high up i reckon, the 30 works for me for now. The risers are standard issue as well, you may order one, only if you have a scope, lol . Yeah, tahts the sling, still trying to make a plan my side for one... Teh second pic with the R5 painted... thats not normal for our guys, neither is taht scope, those arent run of the mill infantry!

Lou, I'm looking at making a hybrid mount, im trying to borrow a front to rear mount off one of the X class guys and i have a piece of mil spec RIS rail off ne of my M4's that i want to get the machine guys to copy and run along the top, I will show you guys the prototype and if i can get maybe 10-20 made i will see how profitable it would be to sell them...

[lcastillo]

Hey Yeah Ruski that would be great to get a rail!! Keep me updated. Check this guy in Latin America speed field strip his Galil http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPW-n...layer_embedded

[lcastillo]

Ruski, Besides the SAPS STF, does any Police units use silencers? Also I was curious how do you deal when entering buildings at night with the R5's short barrel, do you get momentarily blinded by the muzzle flash of the short barrel? Here is a picture I found of a Columbian Army Sniper with a 5.56 MM Galil set up with a scope and silencer but no bipod, that brings me to my next question. In following your conversation with Adipose on the discussion of using ther magazines as rest when firing your weapons. Does that not cause malfunctions? What is your opinion? Cheers Lou

[ruski5181]

Hey lou, in that video, that guys gas tube goes in waaay too easy, what about those little ridges at the back that you have to line up...

If the STF use silencers, I don't know anyone who would talk about or know about it.. cause that would mean going in with the purpose of stealthfully killing someone, remember their principals are still losely SWAT, life saving, not life taking. I havent had to shoot my weapon on duty in my 10 years, i like to think im lucky, or just look scary enough and command a presence when taking down gang houses and drug dens. So the only night shooting i have done is out on ranges at night with tacticl lights etc. In the bush last week i had my night sights flipped up and their little green glow made me very happy that i could hit anything that made a noise around us in the dark.

in my experience, the Galil mags arent like M4's, pressure wot effect the lip of the mag, cause the AK method of insertion its 'stuck' at that place in the weapon, so never had it effect my shooting digging the mag into my mat as a pivot point.

[lcastillo]

Ruski, I know I can't do a field strip that fast! C'mon the silencers are so not to wake up the next door neighbors of the gang house you are taking down Heheh. Yeah I was wondering how your eyes adjust to the short barrel flash, but now I know. Say did you work at the World Cup when it was in SA? Did they ask you not to carry your R5 because of the tourist? Did you have to beat down any foreign knuckle headed drunk hooligans when they where there? Did you put the handcuffs on Paris Hilton when she was caught smoking dope? later Lou

[ruski5181]

Hey Lou, yeah, I did work world Cup, They did get a bit funny about unifrom standing orders and about wearing gear that was not issued, there was also a rumour that they where going to try deploy members without firearms to areas in the CBD to make the crowds feel easier, but that didnt happen, they also asked us nicely not to use R5's during the day, even though they couldnt stop us.
Unfortunately I didn't get to work in CBD i was posted in the suburbs, so not many tourists around, the guys who did get to work in CBD got to lock up alot of tourists, in fact, we had such a problem, crime for us was down,from the locals, they where busy, drinking, partying and watching soccer, most of our crime was tourists who thought they could come here and make trouble and get away with it, Theft was a huge problem! Tourist on tourist theft! Lol, Paris was arrested in DUrban i think? i'm a Cape Town boy, born and bred...

I would love to make and fit a silencer to my R5, we don't have those funky laws about forms and stuff that you do... I think its just illegal, full stop, but would be cool to try

[lcastillo]

Ruski, Funny how those tourist can cause problems! So I am curious to know if since you activley compete with your R-5 does this exclude you from yearly qualifications or do you still have to qualify with your R-5 thru your department? Does part of your yearly qualifications require you to fire your weapon in select fire (as in bursts)? Do you fire to center mass with a follow up shot (double tap)? Here in the US some people feel the 5.56mm does not have enough punch as a defense round, do you or your fellow officers feel the same in SA about the 5.56 especially since you good chance you might go up against AK-47 7.62 X 39mm? Have a good night.

P.s. I leave you with a cutaway from a silencer/suppressor on a Galil. Don't get any funny ideas.

[Ady]

Hi Guys

I hope you dont mind me joining in on your conversation. Col Breytenbach said in one of his books that he didn't like the new R4/5 when it was intoruced with the 5,56 round and he felt it was too light for bush combat, whereas the 7.62 round was heavier and you could shoot a terr through a small sized tree if need be whereas the 5.56 wouldn't be able to do that. There was a case some time back in Jhb where robbers were held up in a house and giving SAPS all kinds of trouble with AK's until they got some old R1's into action and solved the problem.

I'm not in the service, but i do compete in 3 gun shoots alot and the guys shooting 7.62 rifles are sore and tired at the end of the day compared to those shooting 5.56 rifles. Atleast the 5.56 recoil is manageable and easier on the shoulder especially when you are putting alot of lead down range and on the move in a short space of time.

There is a company called Lock Stock and Barrel that makes silencers/suppressors for the LM4/5, i haven't seen or shot with one, but there was a good write up about them in a past issue of the Magnum magazine.

[lcastillo]

Ady, Not a problem to join in. Welcome onboard andglad to have you. Thanks for your insight, I have always wondered if other groups feel the same about the 5.56 mm around the world. I personally like the 5.56mm round. I have seen pictures of dead cartel members in Mexico shot up by the Mexican Marines and I can tell you 5.56mm is still a devastating round. What kind of weapons do you use in your 3 gun shoots? Thanks Again Lou

[ruski5181]

Ady, welcome! Good to have you!

Nope, being Western Province registed an SACRA registered doesnt allow you anything, you still have to do your annual shoot with the rest of the guys, the instructors are harder on you if you let slip, so we keep it quiet util we shoot a smiley face at their 25 metres... hehehe

I must say, we are more nervous about ATm bombings and cash in trasit heists when they have 7 guys 2-3 with AK's and we have 2-4 guys, maybe one with an R5... so we don't rush to those scenes until we have enough guys, also, we like to think, or hope if you will that with our training, we can outshoot them, even under pressure, ie. they spray a mag and we are able to put 3-5 in centre mass... but some of the guys are police or army or foreign army o who knows until they're dead...

I do agree with Ady's sentiment of Col. Breytenbach, i would be more confortable usin the R1 on duty and having 20 rndsof 7.62 with heavy penetration. 3 gun sounds expensive but also sounds like so much fun! Ady, do you shoot for police or yourself?

Lou, for annual shoot we don't fire on auto, only semi.. and.. dammit that picture has given me some great ideas...

[ruski5181]

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/59567...H_WAR_ERA.html 50 round metal mag for sale,