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Thread: Free Float AK

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    Registered User HART1's Avatar
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    Free Float AK

    Will,
    Have you ever tried to free float an AK barrel and piston system?
    Why couldn't you shorten an AK piston (maybe micro galil piston), use a Galil gas tube and a gas block that's supported by a "SD shroud" like an MP5 is done? (All welded together) The gas block would no longer need to be attached to the barrel for support. You would need to pipe the gas to the piston, but that that could be done with a low prifile AR type gas block.
    The O.D. of the shroud could be made to match the I.D. of an AR free float hanguard also.

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    I like this idea. Especially in a SBR format.

    Convert it to 9mm and I'd love this idea. Make a really compact PDW. Which I've been wanting for a while

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    Registered User HART1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cultist View Post
    I like this idea. Especially in a SBR format.

    Convert it to 9mm and I'd love this idea. Make a really compact PDW. Which I've been wanting for a while
    The design was meant to make a long barreled AK more accurate, but I see no reason it wouldn't work for what you want. The 9mm AK is very accurate, even in it's standard configuration.

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    That's pretty much what we do with our AK SD , also used it on the long range AK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Jacket View Post
    That's pretty much what we do with our AK SD , also used it on the long range AK
    Yes you do and I had that in mind when I came up with this twist to your design. You still rely on the AK gas block being mounted to the barrel though.
    What I'm thinking of is to weld everything together, just like an MP5SD is done. You no longer need the barrel to support the AK gas block. Just mount a low proflile AR type gas block and D.I. tube to transfer gas to your AK gas block. Would this not give better harmonics to the barrel, making it a more accurate rifle?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Jacket View Post
    That's pretty much what we do with our AK SD ,
    Any pics of that SBR configuration? I searched this forum and the your website and couldn't find any.

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    If the bolt carrier tolerances weren't so sloppy with the receiver rails, I'd take a shot at doing a direct impingement gas system like an AR to fuck with the gas piston AR guys.
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    Registered User HART1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surly View Post
    If the bolt carrier tolerances weren't so sloppy with the receiver rails, I'd take a shot at doing a direct impingement gas system like an AR to fuck with the gas piston AR guys.
    Even some of the Cetme and HK carriers i've played with over the years had a lot of slop, but they shot very accurately. I know the HK has a different lockup system and some like the PSG1 even weld in rails to make the receiver stiffer, but if you lap the lugs and free float the barrel on a milled receiver, I bet it would be accurate as hell.
    This is just a rough pic of what I was thinking.
    Without Handguard.


    With Handguard


    For futue updates, check my build thread. http://www.weaponsguild.com/forum/in...?topic=27581.0
    Last edited by HART1; 02-02-2012 at 09:58 AM. Reason: Adding info

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    You can use a Yugo M-76 milled receiver for .308. There was an outfit making them in .308 instead of 8mm. I'd be willing to bet the an M-76 bolt would work too. You shouldn't have any problems converting M14 mags to work with it.
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    Registered User HART1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surly View Post
    You can use a Yugo M-76 milled receiver for .308. There was an outfit making them in .308 instead of 8mm. I'd be willing to bet the an M-76 bolt would work too. You shouldn't have any problems converting M14 mags to work with it.
    Really? I had a Paterson Machine 8mm receiver, but decided to sell it. If you remember who makes milled .308 receivers let me know. I know some Mitchell Arms guns came in .308, but I never seen any others?
    I was at my buddys house today and he had 3 Saiga .308's. I tried to buy the beat up one to use for my piston design, but he wouldn't sell it. I'd really like to see if my design works the way I think it should, but need to find a donor rifle first.
    Last edited by HART1; 02-05-2012 at 08:58 PM.

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    I like the idea, Ill keep on the look out for a donor. If I didn't just get the Galil receiver I was going to get a milled receiver from CNC warrior for a Russian kit I have. If you still haven't found a donor in a month or two I might be willing to let you experiment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HART1 View Post
    Really? I had a Paterson Machine 8mm receiver, but decided to sell it. If you remember who makes milled .308 receivers let me know. I know some Mitchell Arms guns came in .308, but I never seen any others?
    Ohio Rapid Fire used to make them in .308 and now he's passed. I think Wiselite might be making the receivers, but I can't confirm that. Assault Weapons of Ohio bought out ORF's inventory and they are selling kits, but no receivers. A WTB ad might get you a receiver.

    Saiga's are relatively cheap...you can pick up a new one for around $500 from CFS. Also, there are some .308 Gal;il receivers out there. I have seen them, I just can't remember where.
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    Yes, I knew Todd and bought HK parts from him, but I was always told to stay away from his milled receivers.
    I had a Patterson M76 receiver, but it really wasn't what I wanted and I sold it. If I was going to use a Galil, I'd buy one from Denny Butts and be done with it, but it's also not what I want.
    I'm going to put this on hold till I can find a used Saiga 308 to tear up. I have a friend that owns a small shop on the lookout for one.
    Last edited by HART1; 02-12-2012 at 02:54 AM.

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    Free floats from Finland

    Hi all,

    Greetings from Finland.

    We have been doing free floating of AKs for years. Usually we put some kind of a support to the receiver and then attach an aluminium tube to that. The aluminium tube is cut on the top side for the gas tube.

    A couple of pictures of my projects which are not so regular.

    The first one is an Arsenal AK where a Valmet barrel has been installed (threads were CNC machined to the receiver)

    As you can see there is an additional support element attached to the support rod go-ing into the receiver.

    That will support the G36 front stock. Now I have an AK with free floated G36 front stock. Btw the gas tube is also from Valmet.

    A picture of the rear side of the gas tube. The fitting of the gas block is to tight that it does not put pressure to the gas block. As you can see we still have the chamber to ream.

    Another one is my battle Norinco.
    The support.
    Attached to the rifle.
    With free float ACR hand guard.
    And with quick detach silencer attached to the muzzle brake.

    There is loads of stuff that we have being doing to our AKs. Here is just a sneak peak.

    CheersName:  akprojekti41.jpg
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    Last edited by BigPFin; 03-05-2013 at 02:50 PM.

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    Free floats from Finland

    I almost forgot. I have a question about the combination of AR15 gas tube to the AK gas system.

    Do you really get that much added benefit? And how is the gas system constructed in RJF SD AK? I mean it looks like a lot of work to change the gas system like that and do you get that much more accuracy from the conversion. I guess with RJF SD AK the gas system might have a role to reduce the back pressure which is shooting back from the gas tube in suppressed AKs.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by BigPFin; 03-05-2013 at 04:04 AM.

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    what is the purpose of doing it, making it more accurate? You can try using SVD like gas system, then what you got is a VZ58. A well built AK is reasonably accurate, so dancing around the design you are making it into something it is not. I am sorry to piss into your cherios.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris View Post
    what is the purpose of doing it, making it more accurate? You can try using SVD like gas system, then what you got is a VZ58. A well built AK is reasonably accurate, so dancing around the design you are making it into something it is not. I am sorry to piss into your cherios.
    Yes, to make it more accurate. It would take the stress of the piston off the barrel while firing. Have you ever seen slow motion video of an AK being fired?
    Your not going to change my mind on this subject. If you understand my design as per the pics in post #8 and #10. I think my design is sound, but your welcome to your opinion.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGivoWD9OvQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_E_GJayano

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    Hi ok, interesting. You think that the barrel flex comes from the gas piston. Makes sense. I also found a picture of RJF long range AK but not from the actual gas system. Do you have any data on the effects on accuracy of the RJF/HART1 gas system?

    One thing I would like to investigate, which is common hearsay in Finland, is that threading the barrel to the receiver makes a rifle more accurate.

    A question to HART1: how do you measure gas pressure, dwell time etc. in your design?

    P.S. sorry, my pictures are not showing. I managed to upload some of the pics of the G36 freefloat handguard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HART1 View Post
    Yes, to make it more accurate. It would take the stress of the piston off the barrel while firing. Have you ever seen slow motion video of an AK being fired?
    Your not going to change my mind on this subject. If you understand my design as per the pics in post #8 and #10. I think my design is sound, but your welcome to your opinion.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGivoWD9OvQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_E_GJayano

    no, I know about the barrel flex, and obviously having both a handguard and a gas tube hanging there makes it for crazy harmonics.

    weight on AK bolt is distributed oddly, a lot of it is in gas piston, and for a reason. Rail contact is small and gas piston plays the role of the third leg adding stability.

    Looks at PSL "upgrade" into "SVD short stroke":
    http://blackhorsearsenal.gostorego.c...rsion-kit.html
    I'm not going to start flame wars, but AK is technically a short stroke too. The point is, compare an SVD bolt to AK or PSL bolt:



    also look at VZ58 bolt and piston system:



    compare SVD and VZ bolts to AK and more specifically the area of the rail contact to the bolt. Both of them are longer, flatter and area of contact is greater than on an AK bolt, because on AK bolt you don't need that (since you got hard-attached piston)

    basically, what I'm saying, by the time you are done, your gas-bolt will look similar to SVD or VZ gas-bolts, so may be those are better starting points for you than an AK.

    Also, it may not be obvious, but just making an AK bolt look or work like a VZ gas system/bolt may make it less stable and introduce additional vibration.

    VZ58 are considerably more accurate than AKs but harder to maintain and I would claim as less reliable.

    Milled receiver is always a plus, regardless of a system.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigPFin View Post
    Hi all,

    Greetings from Finland.

    We have been doing free floating of AKs for years. Usually we put some kind of a support to the receiver and then attach an aluminium tube to that. The aluminium tube is cut on the top side for the gas tube.

    A couple of pictures of my projects which are not so regular.

    The first one is an Arsenal AK where a Valmet barrel has been installed (threads were CNC machined to the receiver)

    As you can see there is an additional support element attached to the support rod go-ing into the receiver.

    That will support the G36 front stock. Now I have an AK with free floated G36 front stock. Btw the gas tube is also from Valmet.

    A picture of the rear side of the gas tube. The fitting of the gas block is to tight that it does not put pressure to the gas block. As you can see we still have the chamber to ream.

    Another one is my battle Norinco.
    The support.
    Attached to the rifle.
    With free float ACR hand guard.
    And with quick detach silencer attached to the muzzle brake.

    There is loads of stuff that we have being doing to our AKs. Here is just a sneak peak.

    CheersAttachment 23702Attachment 23703Attachment 23704
    BigPFin,

    I love it when people think outside the box. My hat's off to your G36 frankin gun! I've made several myself.

    You just need to mod it more to match up with the Galil gastube or mod your dust cover to match the block in front of the trunnion. Then it would be very Sweeeet!

    I haven't had my hands on the 1000 yard AK,

    but I do have one of Will's other guns and eye balled it very close. They are both about the same in my opinion. Will shortened the gas system to micro Galil style. Bringing back the gas block helped with the barrel flexing.

    If your G36 forearm mount was made of a solid steel block and attached to the barrel kinda like a PSG1/MSG90 trunnion


    and also attached to the gas tube, you'd be half way to my design. You just need to shorten the gas tube and weld a gas block to the end and pipe in your gas from an AR gas block and tube.




    The block in your design would take the place of my support cage. My cage is to support a free floating AR forearm that would sleeve over it.


    P.S. These are some of the frankin guns I designed.
    1. A HK93 that took AR mags. (Before the CA53AR)




    2. A HK that shot 7.62x39 (Before the PTR32)


    3. A HK in 45acp that used Glock/Kriss mags


    4. Left side safety for a Yugo M92 underfolder


    5. AR45 Subgun


    6. Saiga 12 with a ported gas system



    7. AK Bumpfire rear trunnion



    8. Free Float HK carbine in 45acp.
    Last edited by HART1; 03-08-2013 at 06:51 PM.

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