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Thread: FNC Sear with SCAR variance/amendment to F3 on Gunbroker

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stout View Post
    Thompson, you don't understand the question at all. A sear ready HK is typically the upper with a push pin behind the magazine well and a paddle mag release. The push pin is required to use a FA lower. On semi HK rifles, there is a shelf added to the upper where the pushpin goes to keep you from just adding a FA lower. So a sear ready HK rifle is just a FA upper and BCG with a semi lower, which are readily availble for purchase without paperwork. The sear or pack would be the registered part. A sear ready HK would be readily convertible to a machine gun by adding an FA lower, registered or not(illegal). Why is this OK and machining a slot in an AR lower for a GI sear not legal? Are you making a new rifle? No. Are you altering the way the rifle functions. No.

    In fact, because the lower on the FNC is not the gun, why don't they all just come with the slot and hole? My FNC is not a sear gun, although the sear is in the lower, the upper is the registered part. Shouldn't I be allowed to have unregistered spare sears laying around in case mine wears out? Not that I've ever even seen one.... I only have the one FNC so it's not like I'm gonna put it in another gun or anything.

    Okpud, you're the C3 guy. What the story.

    I understand you may be able to use a registered pack in a semi lower anyway.
    Actually, I'm a C2 guy

    The answer is both simple and complicated at the same time. Simply put, the ATF is not consistent in the decisions and rulings it makes. As a "general rule", and not in any way, shape, or form meant to be legal advice, the ATF generally looks at the intent of what a firearm or sear conversion what originally meant for when it was originally registered.

    In the example of your HK sear, the sear/trigger pack was originally designed to be installed in multiple HK firearms and clones, so the ATF allows it.

    With an AR-15 DIAS, it gets more complicated. Assuming you have only one DIAS, you can only have one lower with a FA trigger/hammer group, as the ATF sees these as conversion parts. You can, however, have multiple uppers with FA bolt carriers (the ATF has explicitly ruled that FA bolt carriers are ok in SA rifles). It is also perfectly ok to mill a high shelf AR-15 lower into a low shelf in order to use a DIAS, and this is not considered to be manufacturing a machine gun. Technically you can move the DIAS from lower-to-lower, but since you can only have one FA trigger/hammer group, this can be more complicated. For this reason, I know several folks who have bought MGI lowers w/ their modular mag wells so that they can gave one "DIAS lower", but easily convert it to multiple calibers for different uppers quickly.

    In the case of drilling a hole for a GI auto sear in an AR-15, there is no such thing as a transferable GI sear. This means that the only reason for ever drilling a sear hole in an AR-15 lower is if you are intending to make a new machine gun. Now were back to the 1968 GCA definition of a machine gun any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun

    FNC sears are different than both AR-15 DIAS's and HK sears/trigger packs in that the FNC rifle requires machining, welding, tooling, and extra parts (pin, sear spring, etc) to add the registered S&H sear. There is nothing "drop in" about it, unlike the DIAS and HK sears. Also, the FNC sears were specifically designed and registered with one intent in mind; converting a FNH FNC rifle to legal full auto operation. Unlike the DIAS and HK sears, they were not designed to be easily moved to different firearms within the same family. This is why the ATF takes a narrow view on the S&H sears and has only approved their use in FNH FNC rifles to this point. Being who they are, they can always change their mind and allow the sears to be installed in other "similar" platforms, but I doubt it. FNH themselves has already stated that the SCAR is a whole new platform and not based on any previous design. I.E. you can't claim it to be an "improved FNC" or "FNC type rifle" because the MFG says that it isn't.

    All my own views as a Class II MFG who's family has been in the FFL game for over 40 years.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt526 View Post
    Here is an interesting tidbit -

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=276791729

    Looks like trouble to me.
    You never know what will show up on GB.

    Stay Safe,
    Glockdude1.........................

    "If War is HELL, Take a better Pitchfork than the DEVIL!!!"

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stout View Post
    A sear ready HK is typically the upper with a push pin behind the magazine well and a paddle mag release
    Sorry Stout, but unless registered......ATF considers this an unregistered machine gun. THIS IS NOT A "SEAR-READY" HK. You actually have it somewhat backwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Travarmy View Post
    My 2 cents - A sear ready HK 90 (clone) series weapon is semi weapon (shelf installed) with a Full Auto Bolt Carrier assembly.
    This is a "sear-ready" HK. Travarmy has it correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by okpud View Post
    The answer is both simple and complicated at the same time.
    Agreed........

    Quote Originally Posted by okpud View Post
    FNC sears are different than both AR-15 DIAS's and HK sears/trigger packs in that the FNC rifle requires machining, welding, tooling, and extra parts (pin, sear spring, etc) to add the registered S&H sear. There is nothing "drop in" about it, unlike the DIAS and HK sears.
    FNC Sears different from the RDIAS......Agreed. HKs not so much different. IMO. An HK sear only becomes "drop-in" AFTER either a semi or full auto trigger box has been altered to accept it. There are several steps to include cutting, welding and drilling of the trigger box to make it "drop-in" ready for an HK sear. ATF has ruled that a "sear-ready" trigger box absent of a sear is a NO NO.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Stout View Post
    In fact, because the lower on the FNC is not the gun, why don't they all just come with the slot and hole?.
    FN-H built these as semi rifles......why would they??? Anyhoo.....the S&H FNC sear uses a different geometry than the factory sear anyhow. The hole for the factory sear and S&H sears are placed differently. That's why ATF allowed the drilling of the lower / conversion back when ATF considered the lower the firearm. ATF would not have allowed the drilling of the FNC lower had Curtis used a factory-spec sear.

    Same reason why there's no registered GI auto sears. ATF would not have allowed "drilling & milling" of the receiver for a factory spec sear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stout View Post
    My FNC is not a sear gun, although the sear is in the lower, the upper is the registered part. Shouldn't I be allowed to have unregistered spare sears laying around in case mine wears out? Not that I've ever even seen one.... I only have the one FNC so it's not like I'm gonna put it in another gun or anything..
    It all depends on how your RR FNC was converted. If it was converted using a factory spec sear / placement.......you could have spares if you could find them. No different than having a spare "catch" for a RR PP HK gun.......

    If it was converted using an unregistered S&H spec FNC sear then you can't. The S&H spec sear is considered a f/a conversion device requiring registration.........just like you can't have spare unregistered HK conversion sears lying around either. Both would be illegal unregistered conversion devices......oops there's another similarity!

  4. #44
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    HKG3K
    All good points and thanks for the clarification on all of the items you covered. The first one still baffles me though. If I go to Gunbroker I see several guns that are listed as sear ready with paddle mag releases and swing down lowers just waiting for a registered sear. These are not registered machine guns. Do they put a different sized bushing in these to prohibit the installation of an unmodified FA lower? BTW: It's just weird to think that my Century C93 pistol is "sear ready".

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=278840901
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=270339635
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=278682333

    I believe my FNC does not have the factory spec sear as I must pull back on the bolt slightly during reassembly. But I could be wrong.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stout View Post
    HKG3K
    All good points and thanks for the clarification on all of the items you covered. The first one still baffles me though. If I go to Gunbroker I see several guns that are listed as sear ready with paddle mag releases and swing down lowers just waiting for a registered sear. These are not registered machine guns. Do they put a different sized bushing in these to prohibit the installation of an unmodified FA lower? BTW: It's just weird to think that my Century C93 pistol is "sear ready".

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=278840901
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=270339635
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=278682333

    I believe my FNC does not have the factory spec sear as I must pull back on the bolt slightly during reassembly. But I could be wrong.
    The "sear ready" receivers have a "shelf" that does not allow select fire lowers to be used.


    Stay Safe,
    Glockdude1.........................

    "If War is HELL, Take a better Pitchfork than the DEVIL!!!"

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stout View Post
    The first one still baffles me though. If I go to Gunbroker I see several guns that are listed as sear ready with paddle mag releases and swing down lowers just waiting for a registered sear.
    Ah, what you see is not what it appears.........those guns have the shelf and paddle mag release (just like in the photo provided by glockdude1), but the grip housing has been altered to fit the shelf and fake "push pin" glued into place. This gives the "appearance" of a factory push pin gun......but is in fact a gun with the shelf and the grip frame still clips on. HTH.

  7. #47
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    You're absolutely correct.
    Drilling through the hole and ATF now consider it as Machine Gun.

    Interesting enough, the first batch of MKE Turkish MP5 type of guns have that "black hole" filled with a rod and "hot glued" it.
    Sometime, it slips out with a simple tap of punch or while just plain shooting.
    ATF found out this later and new gun now has better welding to prevent this.

    Still NO semi shelf on MKE HK licensed guns, however, it has internal block that prevent the use of auto-sear.
    Yes, it's very complicated if you study deeper.
    IMHO, ATF & NFA are here to "discourage" the ownership of full-auto and not here to help you to own or use it.

    Now, I just purchased my first FNC w/ sear so yeah I would like to see it installed on my SCAR.


    Just my .02 cents.

    Here are my future full-auto SCARs with FNC sear.
    Last edited by coolhand; 03-27-2012 at 01:50 PM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolhand View Post
    Still NO semi shelf on MKE HK licensed guns, however, it has internal block that prevent the use of auto-sear.
    Not entirely correct. The MKE guns just don't have a "wrap around" shelf, but do have a shelf for the clip-on lower to attach. I don't know 1st hand but I've heard that a normal c/p lower will also fit MKE guns.

    The internal block sucks as these guns would probably make great sear hosts.


  9. #49
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    You're absolutely correct sir!
    I forgot to examine the inside.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkg3k View Post
    Not entirely correct. The MKE guns just don't have a "wrap around" shelf, but do have a shelf for the clip-on lower to attach. I don't know 1st hand but I've heard that a normal c/p lower will also fit MKE guns.

    The internal block sucks as these guns would probably make great sear hosts.


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    Its been a while since I looked at this site and I saw this thread so this is a good time for me to chime in on this.I bought a large amount of sears in 2003. I put an FNC sear in a semi-auto AR-15, used all semi-auto AR-15 parts that I made a few modifications too and submitted it to the NFA Branch. (Let me add that nobody hopes this scar thing happens more than I do.)
    It took about 2 years for them to figure out how to tell me in a legal fashion that it was never going to happen and there answer was very simple. They told me I could put all of the FNC sears in to AR-15s that I wanted to but they would all be considered post sample machine guns. Im sorry guys. The thing with the FNC sears going in to anything but FNCs and becoming transferable ,,,,is NEVER going to happen. EVER.... I still have the file with the letter form ATF in my desk. I hope Im wrong. If I am, they will have to let them go in to semi-auto AR-15s. They constituted the installation as a newly manufactured machine gun thus making them a POST 86. All of those sears were registered as model FNCs. Thats all they can go in.

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    TBA..... your example or point is not relevent to this situation.

    I too submitted an AR-15 FNC design. It is apples and oranges.

    You cant modify a firearm lower and thus ATF said no way.

    FNC lower THEN after all the AR-15 disapprovals became a NON-FIREARM and then created this new situation.

    Like i said, I will/am submitting a variance letter to ATF on my own Sear(s). IF, IF, IF its approved, I will NOT tell anyone because I will buy a few more sears and when I have enough sears I will post any approval letter.

    Dont discount the posibility that someone has an actual approval letter out there already. WE DONT KNOW! That person's best and safest action would be not to tell anyone about it. BECAUSE:
    1. Telling people would drive sear prices thru the roof and that person may be trying to buy up some more.
    2. Telling people and you have the chance that ATF will get a letter from someone complaining and ATF would do exactly what they did to AKINS.

  12. #52
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    I agree... I think you have more chance of getting it approved with FN SCAR.

    Whoever gets the approval first, shoot me PM.
    I will buy him a nice steak dinner. LOL

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    I bet if it does get approved, we'll see the price of other machine guns drop significantly, such as M16's. People who would otherwise buy an M16 might decide to get a full auto SCAR instead, lowering the demand for M16's. Also you will have people selling RDIAS's, RLL's, and RR's to buy the SCAR sear, raising the supply of those items.

    Also the price of semi-auto FNC's will plummet, because who in their right mind would spend $2500 on a 30 year old gun when you can get a brand new SCAR for $2,000 and have parts availability.

  14. #54
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    I saw LL just sold for $7800 without a host.
    The price of DIAS, LL etc keep going up as of now.
    Where did you see the sign of price dropping?

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolhand View Post
    I saw LL just sold for $7800 without a host.
    The price of DIAS, LL etc keep going up as of now.
    Where did you see the sign of price dropping?
    I'm saying the price will drop on DIAS's and LL's IF the FNC sears get approved for use in SCAR's.

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    It feels great to dream!!

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    Dream all you want but it ain't gonna happen.

    Manufacturer says it's a different platform, and the design and manfacturing processes make it a different generation of weapon so ATF isn't going to approve it. They have been very consistent in this over the past 40 years.


    Sorry, but wishful thinking and progressive logic won't make it happen.


    Quote Originally Posted by xm15e2s View Post
    TBA..... your example or point is not relevent to this situation.

    I too submitted an AR-15 FNC design. It is apples and oranges.

    You cant modify a firearm lower and thus ATF said no way.

    FNC lower THEN after all the AR-15 disapprovals became a NON-FIREARM and then created this new situation.

    Like i said, I will/am submitting a variance letter to ATF on my own Sear(s). IF, IF, IF its approved, I will NOT tell anyone because I will buy a few more sears and when I have enough sears I will post any approval letter.

    Dont discount the posibility that someone has an actual approval letter out there already. WE DONT KNOW! That person's best and safest action would be not to tell anyone about it. BECAUSE:
    1. Telling people would drive sear prices thru the roof and that person may be trying to buy up some more.
    2. Telling people and you have the chance that ATF will get a letter from someone complaining and ATF would do exactly what they did to AKINS.

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