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Thread: Price Check on DIAS's

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    Price Check on DIAS's

    Per JTinIN's suggestion:

    Quote Originally Posted by JTinIN View Post
    All that said, you probably would have been best off to start a new thread on the "The Price of DIAS" vs "borrowing" my thread where I am trying to figure out what a fair price is for a couple of Colt Gray upper.

    What's up with this shit?: http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nf...gi?read=147439 A large segment of the NFA market seems to be inflated somewhat arbitrarily lately.

    20k for a used sear (I get it's steel) and a host? It's not like it comes with a Shrike. Maybe this is the same guy setting the gas prices too. For Christ's sake, even Bernanke hasn't popped interest rates yet.

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    The last all steel RDIAS listed sold for 18k within a few hours. That was a little over a month ago. A recent ad on Subguns had a potential buyer willing to pay 18k for a steel RDIAS. It may seem arbitrary to you, but I'm guessing this latest one wells in less than a week at 20k. Election year prices or a big jump on many NFA items after a long period of being stagnant and flat?
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    The link to Sturmgewehr no longer works, wonder it the DIAS sold or if the linking from here was noted?

    The supply of DIAS being offered to the public has nearly dried up, with those being sold going to friends or sold by work of mouth (i.e. the really nice NFA, which a DIAS was not, is sold by direct contact with regular "A" clients (i.e. guys that buy half dozen plus a year including some really nice pieces). Have a couple of the guys that have been trying to pick one up for over a year, but they are not on the "A" client list ;-). While at first pass appears a little high (a Colt M16 is running several grand less on the public market), in particular since a year ago there were a few around for half that, it is a limited market and the price tends to go up with a demand. I am wondering with the every increasing batch of HK Clone host guns, when the HK Sears clime past the dozen grand point by a major amount and try and catch up with a DIAS. Personal, limited experience, over the last couple a dozen years indicates that the supply of DIAS is lower than HKs, but don't know the actual numbers of DIASs.

    Guess the counter discussion point is what should the price of a DIAS be with todays market ($17K?), let along with the CLEO sign off is in effect .... assuming the 3rd depression has not hit by then.

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    Note that an integrally suppressed 9mm host gun is included at 20k. I'd guess that Norrell host would be worth close to 2k so that means the steel RDIAS is dead on the 18k price that seems to be the new steel RDAIS price point.

    A Colt AR-15 SP-1 conversion recently sold for 14k by a well known dealer. I think a lot of people who didn't see the crazy and rapid rise in NFA prices beginning a decade ago are shocked to see prices move so suddenly. Look at the price of gasoline if you want to get all indignant. I think inflation coupled with an election year and a long period of flat NFA prices may be to blame rather than some sinister plot or greedy sellers.

    Let's try this link.
    http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nf...gi?read=147439
    JCB steel RDIAS comes with John Norrell integrally suppressed 9mm smg ..... professionally converted AR15 Please call or email for details and/or pictures.

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    Registered User JTinIN's Avatar
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    Price Guide is four months old, but interesting comparing Colt M16A1 with DIAS with HK sears, in particular the listed quantities.






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    If the charts accurately reflect price trends, I am curious to know why the trends of the 16 and HK auto sears seem much flatter than the DIAS. I also find it interesting that the price of the DIAS seems to have superceded that of the 16. Why do you think this is?
    Last edited by USSarizona; 04-01-2012 at 09:30 PM.

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    I agree, The pricing on the DIAS is simple supply and demand vs. the flexability of the DIAS in of its self. Yes, the election and the flat nature of the NFA market being considered, are you really willing to spend the $20k required to obtain one? Ther are more sound options if you are looking for a FA 16 platform. JMHO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas SMG View Post
    ...the 18k price that seems to be the new steel RDAIS price point.

    I think inflation coupled with an election year and a long period of flat NFA prices may be to blame rather than some sinister plot or greedy sellers.
    Humbug, it's still bullshit.

    As I mentioned on another, similar post:

    I am no Friedrich von Hayek, but I do grasp, at least in theory, the concept of supply and demand. However, I envision a less scientific phenomenon occurring. It just feels like some out-of-work-asshole is feeling the pinch like the rest of us, and like so many others, feels that we should pay double to make up for his loss of income, perpetuating the negative feedback cycle.

    I imagine this asshole at his computer, posting his Phoenix Arms HP22 on Gunbroker for $8,000,000 and then six other assholes saying to their buddies, "Hey, did you see HP22's are going for eight million? I got two of those!” 72 hours later, if you want to plink at the range with a pocket pistol you have to mortgage your home to do it, while some other asshole in the background shouts, "Hey, you got to pay to play!"

    Yes, I get that part, and I understand the nature of supply and demand, but maybe if people didn’t give in so easily, I wouldn’t be paying $4/gal. at the pump.

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    I understand your anger. But realize if people are willing to pay stupid prices, for what ever the reason, then others will follow. One person can set a trend on pricing as the limited number of DIAS are few compared to RR, LL the other options. You would have to be an asshole not to sell a DIAS for $20k IMHO. "buy low sell high" forget the warrant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by USSarizona View Post
    If the charts accurately reflect price trends, I am curious to know why the trends of the 16 and HK auto sears seem much flatter than the DIAS. I also find it interesting that the price of the DIAS seems to have superceded that of the 16. Why do you think this is?
    I'm just speculating here, but I bet the DIAS is probably in higher demand since it can go in almost any AR15 host (which are cheap when compared to HK hosts). The M16 is what it is and the demand should be lower following the same logic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by medphys View Post
    I'm just speculating here, but I bet the DIAS is probably in higher demand since it can go in almost any AR15 host (which are cheap when compared to HK hosts). The M16 is what it is and the demand should be lower following the same logic.
    Completely agree, however, I am curious because this did not seem to be as overwhelming a sentiment, even on this very forum, as recently as a year or so ago.

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    While the HK hosts cost more than most M16 uppers, with the current state of clones, I proposed in an earlier discussion that the HK sear had a wider range of options. A summary of my earlier post is as follows:

    Sear Based HKs vs Rest of the Full Auto World

    While I like the original classic machine guns and would hate to be with out a Thompson and wish I had not passed on the $3500 BAR and M60 (years ago), the individual cost of a nice classic machine gun can limit the rate at which you acquire them, in part depending when you got them and the size of the toy budget (bellow $100 per week now days one has to wait a while to get a nice Bren, however, as one nears a toy budget of a $500+ per week, you fairly quickly past looking for shooters and tend to be upgrading a focused collection ;-). Thus for the younger shooters (i.e. someone that could not in the old days Form 1 machine guns with out there father ;-), who are not primarily into the history yet (this grows on you), are more a shooter than a collector and are still filling in the gaps for something to shoot, the systems guns tend to give a lot more shooting options for the same dollar spent, once the primary sear or receiver is purchased and thus are a nature starting point.

    Historically the three common system guns were the M16 (and DIAS), HK Sears (or trigger pack Shattered ;-) and the Uzi (which I am excluding from further discussion as is in pistol rounds only). Over the last few years with the various new clones and clone refurbs of factory rifles by Jeff, Mike and others, the line up of options to run your HK sear (or trigger pack) in has grown to the point that for a shooter who does not need to match just the configurations made by HK, the HK sear and hosts have equaled and are surpassing the options for the M16. The three areas where the M16 has advantages are being narrowed each year. Now days one can now get optic rails on your HK clone to mount optics nearly as well as a M16, the cost of a nice upper for your M16 is only a little less than half an interesting clone and now days it is not that hard or expensive to get a barrel changed on the HKs (ok is slower than a M16 and does cost me a couple six packs of good beer extra ;-).

    An advantage of the HK Sear and of course the DLO trigger pack, is one is not hammering on a $12K piece of aluminum which is an M16 (which I think of every few years when the 9mm upper comes out and which my Shrike kept trying to do and is now gone as it would not play nice). I became less worried about sear breaking when one was hammered / blown out the bottom of the trigger pack on a poorly running 21 years ago with bad but low cost ammo (note some of the old 21's were setup bad ... but that is another story) ... with no damage to the sear (trigger pack was toast but could have been rewelded easily enough). That is not to say that an even larger piece of forged steel receiver is not "more" better, just that pricing precludes one having a Thomson, BAR, Bren and 1919A4 at the same price as a sear and several clone hosts any more (did pass up on the BAR and M60 for four grand each back a "few" years ago, but I already said that).

    Following is a few note on trying to stretch the HK clones to fit an ever wider range of areas, more or less, at least for us mortals can purchase only "available" transferable (i.e. excluding some of my favorites such as the M240 and M249).

    Heavy Machine Gun:
    Will start with the one class where have not seen any activity on a sear host for a water cooled 30 cal or 50 cal belt fed machine gun and maybe this is for the best (sure someone will post a home built water cooled gun ;-)

    Medium Machine Gun
    The HK21e on a tripod (I have not seen a good adapter and setup yet on the market for the "e" version, but they are being worked on) could be considered for an entry level medium machine gun or more accurately a "light" GPMG (if such a thing existed). I would rather hammer a 40,000 rounds through a pair of Browning (in particular posties ;-) in a weekend if only due to the lower cost of surplus barrels, parts and lower cost corrosive ammo (8mm in the old days and 7.62x54R). Of course there are various other "better", heavier MMGs or GPMGs with more history but a higher price than the HK21e, assuming you already have the sear.

    Light Machine Gun
    The HK11 tends to allow one to play with a classic light machine gun "like" configuration and the HK21e is light enough to actually fit into the LMG area, but with a belt. Now If it was Christmas I would prefer a nice Bren or even a BAR FND under the tree but has not happened recently, maybe should not have had fresh roasted reindeer that one Christmas morning.....

    The HK23e clone put out by Mike, brings down the price of a SAW like weapon, compared to the original HK23e or the half dozen preSAWs in the pool. Plus one has the option of changing calibers on the MM23e. In comparison to the HK23e the Shrike on the M16 is lighter and an interesting addition for off hand work, however, due the large beaten zone I went with the MM23eK, plus my distrust of having the rear of my aluminum receiver bumped. The 223 M16 Light Machine upper (or the poor man's version with the HBAR flat top upper) can be countered by the HK13 or MM13K options.

    MBR
    The HK91 as a sear host is a first pass equal to the G3 and from my experience a nicer shooter than the M14 (long gone). While like the full auto FAL's, in particular the heavy barrel option, are nice shooters, I found the G3 with a good muzzle brake was similar to the FAL w/o a muzzle brake. No real option now days for a 308 M16 or using a DIAS. The area of supper compact MBRs (i.e. HK51 and the 51K) appear to be primarily an HK occurrence.

    7.62x39 Assault Rifle
    The AK47 is a classic and for a complete historical collection a must have, however, for a shooter the various drum cut PTR32 rebuilds or "scratch builds" by Jeff are doing well for friends. The 7.62x39 uppers for the M16 worked well except for the limited options for mags, thus leaving the DIAS with a 7.62x39 AR15 lower using AK mags as the "other" option. Some the shortest version of the PTR32 rebuilds or "scratch build" Dragon by Jeff look like they may be as interesting shooters as a Krink (which still has the history going for it, but this is a shooters point of view discussion).

    223 Assault Rifle
    The M16 is the classic and again a must have for a complete historical collection, however, an HK33 does fine and with a rail has a fair amount of optics choice, possible in a heavier package.

    223 Assault Carbine.
    The M16 carbine is the classic configuration for many fellow shooters, however, I find the HK 33K to be smoother firing on full (but again maybe heavier, depending on how much you have mounted on the CAR16). Once one gets much below a 9" barrel length the HK53 shoots much nicer than the various sub carbine size M16s that I have used, plus the stock goes shorter on the HK's. The reports in on the baby Dragon (53K) are interesting and start to make one consider a Dragon for an ad hoc replacement for a more modern PDW (which can not be purchased by us mortals).

    45 ACP Subguns
    A few 45 HK hosts have existed on and off, however, one has to have a reason to own a Thomson or two ;-) Other option could be an Uzi in 45 or a MAC10 with accessories.

    9mm Subguns
    The MP5 is a classic and must have for any complete collection. The only other common close bolt 9mm sub gun is the M16 in 9mm with the issues of being hard on hammer pins, mag issues (they self unload and a pain to load with out speed strips) and in general the M16 9mm is choppier than a MP5. The various open bolt subguns, such as the Uzi and Sterling, are nice additions to the MP5 but not really replacements for it. Again there is a whole world of historical 9mm subguns to choose from as one grows the collection, many of which start with MP....

    9mm Compact Subguns
    The MP5K-PDW makes a nice compact subgun that can fill in for a full size sub gun nicely. While we regularly shoot the MP5K-PDW at 100 to 135 yards, after a few mags with a stock MAC10, one tends to loss interest. The mini Uzi is another option, but one that was never as familiar with as the MP5K-PDW.

    Machine Pistols
    The MP5K is at the upper end or past the machine pistol range, with the most common sub gun that best fits being the older MAC11 in 380 and maybe a micro Uzi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by attherange View Post
    You would have to be an asshole not to sell a DIAS for $20k IMHO. "buy low sell high" forget the warrant.
    I concur with this in context. If someone approached said potential seller and said, "hey, I'll give you $20k (or 200K for that matter) for that used auto sear you got there," I would agree. But for said seller to start the bidding at an unreasonable (I feel) number... asshole. And, to be fair, whoever buys at an unreasonable price (I know subjective) is an asshole too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by USSarizona View Post
    Humbug, it's still bullshit.

    As I mentioned on another, similar post:

    I am no Friedrich von Hayek, but I do grasp, at least in theory, the concept of supply and demand. However, I envision a less scientific phenomenon occurring. It just feels like some out-of-work-asshole is feeling the pinch like the rest of us, and like so many others, feels that we should pay double to make up for his loss of income, perpetuating the negative feedback cycle.

    I imagine this asshole at his computer, posting his Phoenix Arms HP22 on Gunbroker for $8,000,000 and then six other assholes saying to their buddies, "Hey, did you see HP22's are going for eight million? I got two of those!” 72 hours later, if you want to plink at the range with a pocket pistol you have to mortgage your home to do it, while some other asshole in the background shouts, "Hey, you got to pay to play!"

    Yes, I get that part, and I understand the nature of supply and demand, but maybe if people didn’t give in so easily, I wouldn’t be paying $4/gal. at the pump.
    If RDIAS' had been produced in the same numbers as M11/9's, yes they would be selling for considerably less today.......but then so would M16's of most flavors. I won't rehash all the advantages a RDIAS enjoys, but suffice it to say there seems to be a widespread "awakening" of the market to those advantages.......just like HK sears seemingly doubled in price overnight around 10 years ago.

    Since May 19th, 1986, ALL transferable machine guns are subject to the laws of supply and demand. I own and have owned what I consider some great machine guns......and the market values them less than what I do. I also own what I consider not so great machine guns the market values far greater than I do. How the market values things doesn't always have to make sense......but it seems to be a mix of quality, rarity, versatility and to a lesser degree ammo cost/availability.

    I'm not sure what your gripe is, but I'm assuming you are/were in the market for a RDIAS. All I can say is you had a great opportunity to buy in the past 3 years and if you're frustrated now........you'll be beside yourself in another year. For myself, I'm glad I converted my RR M16s to RDIAS' before prices got to this level......which I figured they would. I'm a shooter and value the RDIAS moreso than RR M16s.

    BTW, I wouldn't sell a single one of mine at current "market" price......

    hkg3k
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    Quote Originally Posted by USSarizona View Post
    I concur with this in context. If someone approached said potential seller and said, "hey, I'll give you $20k (or 200K for that matter) for that used auto sear you got there," I would agree. But for said seller to start the bidding at an unreasonable (I feel) number... asshole. And, to be fair, whoever buys at an unreasonable price (I know subjective) is an asshole too.

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    Scrooge McDuck
    DEFINE REASONALE

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkg3k View Post
    I'm not sure what your gripe is, but I'm assuming you are/were in the market for a RDIAS.
    BTW, I wouldn't sell a single one of mine at current "market" price......
    I was considering, but am no longer because of recent inflation. What bothers me isn't the fact that I won't be getting a DIAS (or any material object outside my means for that matter) but rather that some people's foolishness can have negative consequences for others; this occurance takes place in much more meaningful venues than the NFA market.

    Not sure if you intended to arouse feelings of jealousy with a picture of you five sears, but in case you are looking for a golden star, here are five to match your sears:


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    Quote Originally Posted by attherange View Post
    DEFINE REASONALE
    From Merrian-Webster:

    Definition of REASONABLE

    1a : being in accordance with reason <a reasonable theory>
    b : not extreme or excessive <reasonable requests>
    c : moderate, fair <a reasonable chance> <a reasonable price>
    d : inexpensive
    2a : having the faculty of reason
    b : possessing sound judgment <a reasonable man>

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    Quote Originally Posted by USSarizona View Post
    I was considering, but am no longer because of recent inflation. What bothers me isn't the fact that I won't be getting a DIAS (or any material object outside my means for that matter) but rather that some people's foolishness can have negative consequences for others; this occurance takes place in much more meaningful venues than the NFA market.

    <snip>
    I can ABSOLUTELY understand your frustrations. I can't help but think of all those Internet-dot-com-kids that ran around blowing their new-found wealth on anything their spoiled asses wanted; driving up real estate, muscle cars, and NFA values to stoopid levels - which ultimately affected all the rest of us.

    They were willing to pay, so folks understandably sold to them at whatever price they would pay.

    Value - all relative to what someone is willing to pay. I'd never be in the market for that folded peice of steel based on what they go for in these post-86-days, so the value is much lower to me than to others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by USSarizona View Post
    From Merrian-Webster:

    Definition of REASONABLE

    1a : being in accordance with reason <a reasonable theory>
    b : not extreme or excessive <reasonable requests>
    c : moderate, fair <a reasonable chance> <a reasonable price>
    d : inexpensive
    2a : having the faculty of reason
    b : possessing sound judgment <a reasonable man>
    These do not relate to the NFA world but they sound nice.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkg3k View Post
    ...I'm not sure what your gripe is, but I'm assuming you are/were in the market for a RDIAS. All I can say is you had a great opportunity to buy in the past 3 years and if you're frustrated now........you'll be beside yourself in another year.
    You hit the nail on the head. http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showth...highlight=DIAS
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