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Thread: Any L7A1 Ammo Still Around?

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    Any L7A1 Ammo Still Around?

    A few years ago some very good 9mm sub gun ammo was being sold as surplus, is any L7A1 +P+ ammo still available?
    Last edited by insider; 06-30-2012 at 01:23 AM.
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    Registered User ddmau's Avatar
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    The latest L7A1 I've seen is all Pakistani surplus. In never tried it, as L7A1 +P+ is a very "hot" loading to begin with, and my personal opinion is that firing 30+ year old PAKISTANI ammo in any of my firearms would not be a good idea.....Even though most of the production machinery was actually British, Pakistani manufacturing tends to be pretty crude, and has never been noted for good quality control in anything . (again -just my opinion)

    Running WWB works fine, or if you want decent cheap ammo - any of the Russian steel-case stuff works pretty well in most sub-guns. Some folks shy away from steel case, but I've never had any issues with it at all, especially the newer polymer-coated stuff.
    JMHO
    Last edited by ddmau; 06-29-2012 at 07:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddmau View Post
    The latest L7A1 I've seen is all Pakistani surplus. In never tried it, as L7A1 +P+ is a very "hot" loading to begin with, and my personal opinion is that firing 30+ year old PAKISTANI ammo in any of my firearms would not be a good idea.....Even though most of the production machinery was actually British, Pakistani manufacturing tends to be pretty crude, and has never been noted for good quality control in anything . (again -just my opinion)

    Running WWB works fine, or if you want decent cheap ammo - any of the Russian steel-case stuff works pretty well in most sub-guns. Some folks shy away from steel case, but I've never had any issues with it at all, especially the newer polymer-coated stuff.
    JMHO
    How can it be Pakistani surplus when L7 A1 ammunition is made by Hirtenberger? This stuff is hot!
    "If all else fails, play dead!"

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    Registered User ddmau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by insider View Post
    How can it be Pakistani surplus when L7 A1 ammunition is made by Hirtenberger? This stuff is hot!
    L7A1 is a designation of a 9mm NATO cartridge..... My point was that I haven't seen any other than Pakistani manufacture available recently. True Hirtenberger L7A1 is pretty rare stuff (only 10,000 cases released to the public, and much of that not allowed for import into the US), and the Pakistanis also COUNTERFEITED Hirtenberger L7A1 as well (which is probably what you've seen)....

    A little cut-and-paste fu:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hirtenberger has produced two types of SMG ammunition. Both were developed on request for the British Ministry Of Defence:

    L7A1- This ammunition was produced between 1990 and 1992. Many samples exceed the NATO maximum chamber pressure specification for small arms, which is 50,000 PSI (345 MPa). For this reason, the British MOD ceased to use it. It was replaced with:

    L12A1- This ammunition is substantially similar, but uses a slightly reduced charge in order to stay under the 50,000 PSI NATO maximum pressure specs.

    Both of these rounds feature a 124-grain FMJ ball bullet, and produce a maximum velocity of about 1,500 fps.

    Contrary to popular belief, these rounds were not designed for arctic conditions, nor were they developed for the Sterling SMG. They were designed for use in H&K MP5 series SMGs. Although they were undoubtedly tested under arctic conditions, the use of the term "adverse conditions" in its designation is more euphemistic than anything else.

    In terms of the commercial availability of these rounds, the MOD released 12 million rounds of L7A1 ammunition as surplus. Since the ammunition is packaged in a 1,200 round case, this means that 10,000 cases were released. Since HP refuses to sell this ammunition to the public, and only produced L7A1 in 1990, 1991, and 1992, and only for the British contract, that means that the entire world's supply consists of 10,000 cases.

    Likewise, within several months of release, BATF banned the importation of the ammunition, due to its being unsafe for use in handguns. This second fact makes the ammunition even more rare in the United States.

    If offered this ammunition for sale, view the offer skeptically, as the above-mentioned facts limit the actual availability of such ammunition- and likewise, a considerable amount of the ammunition imported into the United States has undoubtedly been fired already by its owners.

    Beware of attempts to sell ammunition which is falsely advertised as " Hirt SMG ammo ". Many dealers, either due to ignorance or fraudulence, will sell standard Hirtenberger ammunition and claim that it is the SMG rounds.

    L7A1 ammunition can be identified by its headstamps:

    'HP' (for Hirtenberger Patronen)
    '90', '91', or '92' (year of production)
    'L7A1' (ammunition type)
    NATO proof mark (a circle with a cross inside)

    If the headstamp doesn't contain "L7A1", it is NOT the SMG rounds.

    Some forgeries of this ammunition have been produced in other nations (particularly in Darra, Pakistan, where many forgery firearms and ammunition are produced for the black market). The easiest way to tell that the ammunition is forged, is the absence, or poor application, of a red sealant ring around (and slightly onto) the primer.

    Any ammunition marked "L12A1" is either a forgery or stolen, since HP produces it exclusively for British MOD.

    The only other manufacturers of "SMG" ammunition (to my knowledge) are:

    Israel Military Industries (IMI), who produce the ammunition packaged in either plain brown boxes or boxes with the " UZI " logo. These rounds are black-tipped, but the black tip designates them only as high-pressure, not specifically as SMG rounds; and

    Remington, who have produced a 9mm SMG round loaded with a standard JHP (not Golden Saber) bullet. Any company advertising Remington SMG Golden Sabre rounds is falsely advertising.

    Note that Remington only produces the SMG rounds on a per-request basis, and only for government agencies. Likewise, IMI produces the SMG ammunition rarely (mostly for Israeli and American military contracts) and very few samples of it are in circulation in the US, mostly in the hands of collectors.

    SMG-specific rounds are NOT SAFE to fire in any handgun. There are a few handguns designs which can tolerate it SPARINGLY, but I do not recommend this practice. Remember, the SAAMI maximum chamber pressure for 9mm +P rounds is 38,500 PSI, and the NATO maximum chamber pressure for small arms, including rifles, is 50,000 PSI. SMG-specific rounds meet or exceed the 50,000 PSI mark.

    Note also that SMG rounds are likewise unsafe to fire in many submachineguns, and virtually all pistol-cartridge carbines, since both are usually engineered for 9mm pistol ammunition. Only a very few models of carbines and submachine guns are suitable for firing the ammunition in; if in doubt, contact the manufacturer and ask them about the use of L7A1 ammunition in their guns."

    Found this info on the net.
    Last edited by ddmau; 06-30-2012 at 08:50 AM.

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    There was just a case for sale on the forum the other day but I can't find it on my phone

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip View Post
    There was just a case for sale on the forum the other day but I can't find it on my phone
    It's still listed in the trader.

    http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showth...7A1-9mm-360.00

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    That stuff is great for Military grade subguns....not so for many pistols lol. Do you want a case to shoot or just a box for your collection? I maybe able to help you with the latter.

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    Any L7A1 Ammo Still Around?

    Any L7A1 Ammo Still Around?



    A few years ago some very good 9mm sub gun ammo was being sold as surplus, is any L7A1 +P+ ammo still available?
    Here is post I did on it a while back.......It's nothing special, just +P+ 9 MM FMJ. I was afraid to shoot it because of all the stuff on the web about it. I tried in in the 9 MM AR first. Chrono'd it, then tried in in Steel frame 9 MM's I have.

    http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showth...ht=#post565617
    I have several boxes of it. Chrono'd it, info below.......



    Shoots good, found some more of the little Hirtenberger 9mm 100 gr SP while I was cleaning out an old safe where I keep my powder.....I had bought the Hirtenberger 9mm 100 gr SP back in the early 80's. Shot a few and put the rest away. I have 4-5 boxes of the L7A1 left........


    L7A1 124 gr FMJ +P+ Very accurate 9 MM! 100 fps faster in the 16" 9 MM AR over the S&W 5906
    M-4 9 MM AR

    1593fps
    1454
    1634
    1631
    1670

    L7A1 124 gr FMJ +P+
    S&W 5906
    1436fps
    1446
    1455
    1453
    1433

    Hirtenberger 9mm 100 gr SP
    M-4 9 MM AR

    1578fps
    1643
    1604
    1597
    1595
    Here is my Glock 17 Suppressed and the MKA-760:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlyS0TXRWhI

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j9AT...8&feature=plcp
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpLha...1&feature=plcp


    Bought some of the PAKISTANI (1000 rounds) stuff to try and will never buy it again, it was very dirty and not very accurate. My MK-760 will run fine on the Cheap Silver Bear 115 Gr FMJ stuff or any of the 124 gr FMJ Sellier & Bellot copper plated steel cases, 124 gr FMJ - Fiocchi, or any of the US commercially FMJ loaded Federal stuff. It even my reloads. It will not run long on Wolf Steel case 9 MM ammo.
    Last edited by GreasyStool; 07-07-2012 at 10:45 AM.

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    Does anybody have a handload that matches this round?

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    Registered User ddmau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea3006 View Post
    Does anybody have a handload that matches this round?
    You probably won't find load data for this (or any other +P+ round) because it EXCEEDS recommended chamber pressures....(the main reason it was discontinued & replaced with the L12A1 in the first place). You are treading on very dangerous ground if you plan to reload to these pressures...there's a reason that they publish MAXIMUM loads in every reload manual...it's not wise to exceed them.... unless you have a death wish.

    Reloading high pressure cartridges is not something to be taken lightly. I've seen more than one gun destroyed (and several pretty nasty injuries) caused by folks thinking that they can max-out, or exceed, a load without consequences. If you are the type that likes to "take it to extremes"...I recommend a different hobby...
    JMHO

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    Play with Accurate Arms #7.. Higher cost powder be VV 3N37 & 3N38, with the '38 being the preffered powder for 9MM major loads I think.. Chrono be your friend too..

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