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Thread: Silencer Standards

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    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    Silencer Standards

    What method does ATF use to determine if a muzzle device is a "silencer"?
    A decibel meter?
    Where is the test performed? (Muzzle, Shooter's Ear?)

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    Registered User rentprop1's Avatar
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    Anything that lowers the dB rating is deemed a silencer .....now sure where the measure it..

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    Quote Originally Posted by rentprop1 View Post
    Anything is deemed a silencer
    fixed it for you.
    but I'm only half kidding.
    think they called Sig's baffle stack without a tube (which did nothing for sound reduction) a silencer.
    its BATFE. logic doesnt apply.

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    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rentprop1 View Post
    Anything that lowers the dB rating is deemed a silencer .....now sure where the measure it..
    I understand that there is no "limit" or "threshold" for the amount of reduction, I'm just curious about how they measure it.

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    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuffDragon View Post
    fixed it for you.
    but I'm only half kidding.
    think they called Sig's baffle stack without a tube (which did nothing for sound reduction) a silencer.
    its BATFE. logic doesnt apply.
    As I understand the SIG situation, ATF basically said the device only needed a tube slid onto it to make it a silencer.
    I know "constructive possession" is like charging every man with "intent to rape" because they have penises, but until rule making authority is taken away from ATF, nothing will get better.
    Unless ATF is eliminated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sniperdoc View Post
    As I understand the SIG situation, ATF basically said the device only needed a tube slid onto it to make it a silencer.
    .
    Exactly. Sig knew that they were installing a real monocore on that firearm. They were just chucking the finger at the ATF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kramer View Post
    Exactly. Sig knew that they were installing a real monocore on that firearm. They were just chucking the finger at the ATF.
    to be fair, same people that said a piece of string was a machinegun.
    however
    to be fair on the other side, when people weld a m11 plate onto the side of a 240 and call it good, that's not exactly right either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sniperdoc View Post
    What method does ATF use to determine if a muzzle device is a "silencer"?
    A decibel meter?
    Where is the test performed? (Muzzle, Shooter's Ear?)

    They follow the definition:

    18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(24)

    The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

    Since parts = silencer, even a single baffle, which by itself cannot "diminishing the report of a portable firearm", is a silencer.
    NFA Firearms: In A World Of Compromise, Some Don't.

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    Registered User rentprop1's Avatar
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    Not sure if ATF measure silender dB the same way manufacturers do but its usually 1.5 m high and 1 m away from the left side of the firearm...or vice versa

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    ATF doesn't need to measure DB reduction. Note the "intended" in the legal definition. ATF has said that ANYTHING that is intended to reduce the sound of a gunshot, regardless of whether or not it actually does, is a suppressor. IOW, if you marketed a device that actually increased the DB level of a gunshot but advertised it reduced the sound, legally it would need to be registered as a silencer. There was a case a while back where a gang banger stuck a potato on the muzzle of their gun and used it to threaten some folks. He was charged with illegal possession of a silencer. His atty argued that the potato would have had no effect on the sound and therefore was not a silencer. The Prosecutor stated he wasn't putting the potato on there to make Hash Browns, he obviously intended for the folks he threatened to believe it would muffle the shot. Convicted.

    Now, that said there are some glaring inconsistencies with ATF decisions on this. Certain .22 ammo is marked as being low noise. Centerfire "silenced ammunition" exists. Essentially, the case either has a captive piston or unfolds like a Jiffy Pop pan and contains all the gas within the case when fired. ATF sez each round is a silencer and has to be registered. You can buy Colibri, CB caps, and .22 Quiet at any gunshop...

    Metro Gun Systems makes the "Metro Bbl", a several foot long screw in choke tube that makes a shotgun bbl ridiculously long. It also reduces the sound of the shot, allowing folks to hunt closer to noise sensitive areas like towns. That is the stated purpose of it, yet ATF seems to have no issues with them even though it acts like a baffle-less expansion chamber.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    They follow the definition:

    18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(24)

    The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

    Since parts = silencer, even a single baffle, which by itself cannot "diminishing the report of a portable firearm", is a silencer.
    So does that mean I can build in a suppressor on a 1919 if it's bolted into the ground, since it's not portable?

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    I'm sure that if the ATF wants you bad enough, if the first round isn't more quiet, they'll keep shooting until one is more quiet than the one before it and then show it to the jury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaujo View Post
    So does that mean I can build in a suppressor on a 1919 if it's bolted into the ground, since it's not portable?
    Possibly.
    I have seen ranges with rows of horizontal plastic drums with the bottoms cut out. This allows lines of rifle shooters to not deafen each other with their muzzle blasts. Being a permanent fixture allows them to not be considered suppressors.

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    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MPA guy View Post
    I'm sure that if the ATF wants you bad enough, if the first round isn't more quiet, they'll keep shooting until one is more quiet than the one before it and then show it to the jury.
    Possibly even using subsonic / reduced power loads?

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    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DistalRadius View Post
    Possibly.
    I have seen ranges with rows of horizontal plastic drums with the bottoms cut out. This allows lines of rifle shooters to not deafen each other with their muzzle blasts. Being a permanent fixture allows them to not be considered suppressors.
    One of the 07/02s on here explained it to me that "non portable" silencers include the drums used to test fire weapons indoors.
    I would presume this also includes "weapons clearing" drums.

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    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimshady View Post
    ATF doesn't need to measure DB reduction. Note the "intended" in the legal definition. ATF has said that ANYTHING that is intended to reduce the sound of a gunshot, regardless of whether or not it actually does, is a suppressor. IOW, if you marketed a device that actually increased the DB level of a gunshot but advertised it reduced the sound, legally it would need to be registered as a silencer. There was a case a while back where a gang banger stuck a potato on the muzzle of their gun and used it to threaten some folks. He was charged with illegal possession of a silencer. His atty argued that the potato would have had no effect on the sound and therefore was not a silencer. The Prosecutor stated he wasn't putting the potato on there to make Hash Browns, he obviously intended for the folks he threatened to believe it would muffle the shot. Convicted.

    Now, that said there are some glaring inconsistencies with ATF decisions on this. Certain .22 ammo is marked as being low noise. Centerfire "silenced ammunition" exists. Essentially, the case either has a captive piston or unfolds like a Jiffy Pop pan and contains all the gas within the case when fired. ATF sez each round is a silencer and has to be registered. You can buy Colibri, CB caps, and .22 Quiet at any gunshop...

    Metro Gun Systems makes the "Metro Bbl", a several foot long screw in choke tube that makes a shotgun bbl ridiculously long. It also reduces the sound of the shot, allowing folks to hunt closer to noise sensitive areas like towns. That is the stated purpose of it, yet ATF seems to have no issues with them even though it acts like a baffle-less expansion chamber.
    Many years ago, the Military (I don't recall which Branch) used a large,long, hollow,uncapped pipe to reduce the sound of an M14 to the level of 22lr. The dimensions were such that it would not be possible to carry and use, but it was rather enlightening to read about

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    A house makes a pretty good suppressor, just sayin
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  18. #18
    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chili17 View Post
    A house makes a pretty good suppressor, just sayin
    I once fired an unsuppressed 45 in an approx 12'×16' room (door was closed).
    My ears hurt for several hours,rang for a couple of days, and I couldn't hear for almost a week!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sniperdoc View Post
    I once fired an unsuppressed 45 in an approx 12'×16' room (door was closed).
    My ears hurt for several hours,rang for a couple of days, and I couldn't hear for almost a week!
    Yea but, I bet it sounded good outside
    Chris Hipes
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    So has anybody done any testing of the classic feather pillow suppressor as seen in countless movies and TV shows? Just carry one around and claim you are narcoleptic...

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