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Thread: 07/02 Questions

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    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    07/02 Questions

    Not sure if this is the appropriate place to post, but I don't see a better category. I'm VERY SERIOUSLY considering applying for a 07/02 License. I have absolutely no experience in either mass production, or manufacturing Class 3/Title 2 items, but I have experience in using them, as well as Title 1 gunsmithing.
    My goals would be:
    1) Improving existing designs;
    2) Creating new Silencer designs;
    3) Designing new FA Weapons for Military use;
    4) Yes, making a few toys to play with.

    Can anyone give me some advice?

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    It's not cheap, and the license is for actively being in the business. It's not for hobbies.

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    Am I correct to say it's 2500 to get into it and 500 a year after that?

    Never mind tools and trying to get a customer base or product to sell/repair just to keep the SOT every year.

    Easiest way for you would be to pony up the money and make a AOW or SBS that required next to no time or tools to produce.
    Then hope you can sell enough to justify and keep the SOT.

    I entertain it in dreams then I go back to doing what really already makes me money and I know I'm good at.

    Best of luck with what ever you do I know from reading your posts you've been looking along time to find a market to make and sell for.

    Rich

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    A friend is getting out of the suppressor / lower business, he is/was a 07/02, main reason was insurance
    Cost and a slow market, said liability insurance was up into 4 figures per month and rising. Also, there were some SOT's that he knew that weren't Renewing there license that have been in the game for over 10 years

  5. #5
    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    1) I'm interested in R&D at this point, as I have no manufacturing capabilities;
    2) I had no clue insurance costs were so high

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    I think it was for liability insurance, since he was manufacturing/ selling complete rifles

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    I think ITAR compliance comes into play as well.

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    Registered User rentprop1's Avatar
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    Unless you have some new Cutting Edge Innovative design you can forget about making items for military and law enforcement ....as a new guy with nothing proven it will be very hard to secure any type of contract. I've been trying to demo a gun for the local sheriff's office for 2 years now.

    If you have a background in Gunsmithing you can offer your services for repair just make sure you have a good insurance policy paid up or you risk everything .

    Now you cant get around ITAR by going an R & D route as soon as you manuf your first item your supposed to register and pay the $2250 per year fee.....500 SOT.....8 to 1200 per mo rent .....6 to 900 insurance of your lucky ....another 150 yearly for corp or LLC.....then util each month about 300.....figure how much gunsmithing you meed to do before you cover all that.....

    silencer sales are down ...not sure why with HPA on the shelf indefinitely ...but youll need demo cans at a min to sell them.....customers like to see stock on hand.....

    Before I got into the gun business I read a smart quote that said how do you make a small fortune in the gun business, start with a large one.

    I'm not trying to burst your bubble or dreams but I have worked in the Firearms business for the last fifteen or so years.... working for someone else...till I jad the money to open my own shop.

    when my grandmother passed away she left me a small sum of money under $10,000 and I basically opened my shop on a shoestring budget. I used all of my own tools from home, but I found it necessary that I have to purchase a lot of equipment just to do basic Gunsmithing jobs......I've been collecting tools over the last 2 years every opportunity but there's always still more to buy....and dont forget buying a tool just to complete a job doesnt always put more that that tool in your pocket.

    I have a slight niche and that I do gunsmithing, sell a lot of can, but focus on Firearms refinishing ( wood stocks) and hot Bluing. The bluing and refinishing is very time-consuming bring and you can get behind very quickly.
    We originally thought of assembling suppressors from pre-made tubes and baffle parts and caps Etc..... however we quickly learned that customers are not interested in Joe Bob's, no name can....when they can get a quality name brand for 30 or $40 more.

    While I've amassed a few toys over the last couple years I have probably 15 projects on the Shelf of my own that you never ever seem to have time to get to..... how many months you work 6 and 7 days a week just to get caught up to have that little bit of play money.

    I survived by getting more and more transfer customers as I dont sell guns or ammo..but each one involvs a huge amount of customer service time .....then,.there is no time for it when your always on the bench...some days taking the time to sell someone a can and do the paperwork is a loosing endeavor!

    Message me if you have any specific questions...but its a very slow time to get in the gun business .....with sub 400 AR you can forget about assembling them and pandering them off at gun shows... if you have Deep Pockets you can always strictly buy used guns and flip them on GunBroker or at gun shows but you need really Deep Pockets .... have a storefront that looks legit and not like some front..... people need to trust you in order to bring their firearms in for appraisal in hopes to get a good price


    have a back up plan, second job, or a one off idea that every gun guy would wanna buy and hope you can patent it, and the big boys dont change it slightly and steal it from you.
    Last edited by rentprop1; 10-12-2017 at 11:42 PM.

  9. #9
    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    Beginning to think I'd be better off to start by finding someone who I can work for until I'm ready to take on all the expense.

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    Registered User rentprop1's Avatar
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    I was 13 years working for others before a small handout gave me the guts to take the plunge.
    Remember I started on a shoestring budget....leasons learned I would never attempt it again like that.... you need reserves and a back-up plan I can't tell you how close I was to sleeping in my shop

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    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rentprop1 View Post
    I was 13 years working for others before a small handout gave me the guts to take the plunge.
    Remember I started on a shoestring budget....leasons learned I would never attempt it again like that.... you need reserves and a back-up plan I can't tell you how close I was to sleeping in my shop
    Thanks for the advice. I will consider what you've said.

  12. #12
    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    I have a great many theoretical designs that I think would make useful items, but there's a vast distance between my brain and an actual product.
    I'm not claiming to be the next John Browning, or Eugene Stoner, but I do have some interesting ideas that I would love to develop.
    Maybe someday!

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    Except for MGs, any idea you have can be developed with a Form 1 and $200 for the tax. Can get expensive with the failed prototypes, but unless you are cranking out several a year it will still be cheaper than licensing up.

    For an MG, try the concept in semi auto and once you have a workable design partner with an 07/SOT FFL to develop the FA version. Honestly, with the lack of civilian sales of MGs these days there is no profit in it unless you have a revolutionary design that someone like FN or HK will license from you. .MIL and .GOV agencies generally go with the big players who can afford the bribes and kickbacks a multi-million dollar contract requires.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rentprop1 View Post
    I can't tell you how close I was to sleeping in my shop
    I did for close to a year ask Kramer.
    slept in the back open in the front. Much better going now.
    Then I was single no kids. Couldn't operate like that today with a wife and 4 kids.

    Rich

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    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimshady View Post
    Except for MGs, any idea you have can be developed with a Form 1 and $200 for the tax. Can get expensive with the failed prototypes, but unless you are cranking out several a year it will still be cheaper than licensing up.

    For an MG, try the concept in semi auto and once you have a workable design partner with an 07/SOT FFL to develop the FA version. Honestly, with the lack of civilian sales of MGs these days there is no profit in it unless you have a revolutionary design that someone like FN or HK will license from you. .MIL and .GOV agencies generally go with the big players who can afford the bribes and kickbacks a multi-million dollar contract requires.
    Those are excellent ideas!

  16. #16
    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    Am I correct to say it's 2500 to get into it and 500 a year after that?

    Never mind tools and trying to get a customer base or product to sell/repair just to keep the SOT every year.

    Easiest way for you would be to pony up the money and make a AOW or SBS that required next to no time or tools to produce.
    Then hope you can sell enough to justify and keep the SOT.

    I entertain it in dreams then I go back to doing what really already makes me money and I know I'm good at.

    Best of luck with what ever you do I know from reading your posts you've been looking along time to find a market to make and sell for.

    Rich
    Besides being bored and physically limited (strength, mobility, and stamina) I would like to make a contribution to the shooting world, especially the Military.
    I have a headful of ideas and stacks of drawings, and if just one of them proved to be worthwhile, I would be happy. (And I would be planning the next project,lol)

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    I’m a home based 07/02 with a day job. Unless it’s something you like doing there is not a whole lotta money in things right now. I have my own little projects that I’m working on, but I can tell you I’m not making money. I am enjoying things- that’s about it

  18. #18
    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertmcm View Post
    I’m a home based 07/02 with a day job. Unless it’s something you like doing there is not a whole lotta money in things right now. I have my own little projects that I’m working on, but I can tell you I’m not making money. I am enjoying things- that’s about it
    I would be happy to break even. If I could also make enough for a "toy" each year,I would be ecstatic.

    I'm really most interested in research.
    AFAIK, there isn't a seperate license that allows for only that; I understand the requirement is the same license as a dealer
    Last edited by sniperdoc; 10-22-2017 at 11:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sniperdoc View Post
    I would be happy to break even. If I could also make enough for a "toy" each year,I would be ecstatic.

    I'm really most interested in research.
    AFAIK, there isn't a seperate license that allows for only that; I understand the requirement is the same license as a dealer
    Manufacturer. A manufacturer can make whatever his license and SOT allows, a Dealer can only buy and sell stuff, Post 86 MGs require a "law letter". Even some traditional activities of a Gunsmith (normally they have only a Dealer license) were re-interpreted to be manufacturing a while back.

  20. #20
    Registered User sniperdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimshady View Post
    Manufacturer. A manufacturer can make whatever his license and SOT allows, a Dealer can only buy and sell stuff, Post 86 MGs require a "law letter". Even some traditional activities of a Gunsmith (normally they have only a Dealer license) were re-interpreted to be manufacturing a while back.
    Do you have to have a Dealer's License also if you Manufacture?
    As previously stated, I no longer have access to a "real" shop, so I can't realistically make large quantities of identical items, especially with speed.
    I just want to build prototypes and do preliminary testing. I would have to leave large scale production to the big guys.
    With ARs,UZIs,etc, SBRs would be easy without a MFR license, just a Form or 4, swap Uppers or Barrels) but with AKs,HKs,etc, it gets more involved. Tweaking Silencer Designs would get expensive quixk.

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