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Thread: Franklin Armory does it AGAIN..

  1. #1
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    Franklin Armory does it AGAIN..

    Its the first I have heard of it.

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...o-sbr-11-5-ar/


    BISHOP
    Last edited by BISHOP; 01-12-2018 at 05:38 PM. Reason: got a timeline wrong

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    Registered User Mackjack's Avatar
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    Curious.... I want to know how...

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    My guess is it is a definition "loophole" that they found and can only remain in that configuration with "their" trigger installed.

    Just my guess.

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    Registered User Mackjack's Avatar
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    Here's a link to TONs of pages of guesses on arfcom if you care. Some ideas are dumb. Some are legit. https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/...069953/?page=1

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    Cool concept, but at Franklin Armory's prices, you would still save money by SBRing a normal AR.
    Might be a legitimate help to those who live in non SBR states (God forbid!)

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    I am pretty sure I get what FA had come up with.

    The text of 18 USC 921(a)(8) reads:

    (8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

    The key language is the second part. If you strictly construe this language you could build a rifle then modify it by reducing the barrel length. As long as the OAL is longer than 26" it is not an SBR. Since we are taking about an AR platform the act of attaching a rifle upper to the lower suffices to complete the build. You could then immediately affix a shorter barrel ulower.

    About 95% sure I have this right. The key indicator is the 11.5" barrel length as that is the absolute shortest barrel you can attach to a standard AR lower and still be longer than 26"
    Last edited by Shyster; 01-12-2018 at 09:19 PM.

  7. #7
    Registered User Mackjack's Avatar
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    They should make a special stock that has a rediculously long fully extended position in that case. Then maybe they can get shorter than 26 inches if it is truly measured extended

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    Registered User theduke's Avatar
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    Theres the over 26" thing as stated

    The possibility of Smooth bore...Polygonal rifling may slip into this catagory

    Then the whole Frankintrigger thing....?

    The stock is kinda slim and could fall into the "brace" catagory.

    Who knows....the price will suk & you'll probly be stuck with "as is" vs any modification.

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    Will probably cost much more than the $200 tax simply to dodge the (perceived by the masses) nfa hassle.

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    Just like the Mossberg Shockwave is smooth bore and with that funky grip. It was born as a pistol grip shotgun so it can have the 14" barrel so long as its over 26 inches its simply a "firearm".

    -Same with this. Born as a pistol, you can change the upper to a smooth bore and with a regular stock and 11.5 barrel you have over 26 inches which makes it a "firearm". The only way to stabilize a bullet without regular rifling is use polygonal which is expensive... the thing will probably cost way more than simply paying $200 to stamp a regular rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hey... View Post
    Just like the Mossberg Shockwave is smooth bore and with that funky grip. It was born as a pistol grip shotgun so it can have the 14" barrel so long as its over 26 inches its simply a "firearm".

    -Same with this. Born as a pistol, you can change the upper to a smooth bore and with a regular stock and 11.5 barrel you have over 26 inches which makes it a "firearm". The only way to stabilize a bullet without regular rifling is use polygonal which is expensive... the thing will probably cost way more than simply paying $200 to stamp a regular rifle.
    No, that would make it an SBS. The shockwave gets around the SBS by never having been a shotgun by virtue of the lack of a buttstock. It would normally be an AOW in that configuration, but ATF interprets the "concealable" part of the definition to mean under 26" OAL so they make it just over that OAL. If you replace the pistol grip on a Shockwave with a buttstock you have converted it into an SBS, although the various "braces" are OK. The FA offering has a for real buttstock on it, so with a smoothbore bbl it would simply change the classification from SBR to SBS, assuming it was built that way originally.

    About the only thing I can see in the law that would allow this is the definition of rifle says that it expels a single projectile for a single pull of the trigger. A "release trigger", one that fires on the release and not the pull, would not meet the definition of rifle. If it is not a rifle and longer than 26" negates AOW, it falls outside any requirements for min bbl length under Fed laws.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shyster View Post
    I am pretty sure I get what FA had come up with.

    The text of 18 USC 921(a)(8) reads:

    (8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

    The key language is the second part. If you strictly construe this language you could build a rifle then modify it by reducing the barrel length. As long as the OAL is longer than 26" it is not an SBR. Since we are taking about an AR platform the act of attaching a rifle upper to the lower suffices to complete the build. You could then immediately affix a shorter barrel ulower.

    About 95% sure I have this right. The key indicator is the 11.5" barrel length as that is the absolute shortest barrel you can attach to a standard AR lower and still be longer than 26"
    The longer than 26" thing is to keep it from being classified as an AOW. Anything that isn't a rifle, shotgun, machine gun, or handgun is an AOW by default unless it is not "concealable". 26" is the cutoff for that per ATF.

    As for the definition, the first part would still apply as it has a buttstock and rifled bbl, the second part is mainly concerning converting a rifle to a configuration without a buttstock.

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    I never said put a butt stock on the shockwave.

    On the ar, just because it has a binary switch means nothing because if flipped to semi it falls back into SBR. Maybe it's binary-only. I still think the trick is that its a smooth bore of some sort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hey... View Post
    I never said put a butt stock on the shockwave.

    On the ar, just because it has a binary switch means nothing because if flipped to semi it falls back into SBR. Maybe it's binary-only. I still think the trick is that its a smooth bore of some sort.
    The definition of shotgun is essentially the same as a rifle, except it has a smoothbore and expels a single OR multiple shot projectiles with a single pull of the trigger. Taking an AR platform rifle and putting a smoothbore bbl on it (from the factory) merely puts it in the shotgun definition instead of rifle. The shockwave and the AR based "firearm" workarounds are workarounds because they lack the buttstock and are not intended to be fired from the shoulder. FA says this has a for real buttstock so it would be designed to be fired from the shoulder.

    If my theory is correct, the semi position would be a release trigger, you pull the trigger, no projectile is expelled. You release the trigger, a single projectile is expelled. Rifle (and shotgun) definition says it has to expel a projectile on the pull, not the release. Now we get into the totally separate definition of MG on the Binary position. The language in that reg says an MG fires more than one shot for a "single function of the trigger". Note it doesn't specify pull or release, just "function". ATF has ruled a pull and a release are separate functions, thus pull bang release bang is not an MG. OTOH, if you go back to the rifle definition, you can't pull a trigger unless it is released first, right? I think they used this logic to say the Binary function makes it expel 2 projectiles for each pull as a release is required to make it fire on the pull. 2 shots per single pull of the trigger instead of 1, not a rifle per the definition in the regs. Over 26" OAL, not an AOW. Legally just a Title 1 Firearm. That's the only loophole I can find in the language of the regs.

    Or I could be totally wrong, I guess we'll find out once Shot opens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimshady View Post
    The definition of shotgun is essentially the same as a rifle, except it has a smoothbore and expels a single OR multiple shot projectiles with a single pull of the trigger. Taking an AR platform rifle and putting a smoothbore bbl on it (from the factory) merely puts it in the shotgun definition instead of rifle. The shockwave and the AR based "firearm" workarounds are workarounds because they lack the buttstock and are not intended to be fired from the shoulder. FA says this has a for real buttstock so it would be designed to be fired from the shoulder.

    If my theory is correct, the semi position would be a release trigger, you pull the trigger, no projectile is expelled. You release the trigger, a single projectile is expelled. Rifle (and shotgun) definition says it has to expel a projectile on the pull, not the release. Now we get into the totally separate definition of MG on the Binary position. The language in that reg says an MG fires more than one shot for a "single function of the trigger". Note it doesn't specify pull or release, just "function". ATF has ruled a pull and a release are separate functions, thus pull bang release bang is not an MG. OTOH, if you go back to the rifle definition, you can't pull a trigger unless it is released first, right? I think they used this logic to say the Binary function makes it expel 2 projectiles for each pull as a release is required to make it fire on the pull. 2 shots per single pull of the trigger instead of 1, not a rifle per the definition in the regs. Over 26" OAL, not an AOW. Legally just a Title 1 Firearm. That's the only loophole I can find in the language of the regs.

    Or I could be totally wrong, I guess we'll find out once Shot opens.
    This is what I think. Don't count on this loophole lasting very long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimshady View Post
    The definition of shotgun is essentially the same as a rifle, except it has a smoothbore and expels a single OR multiple shot projectiles with a single pull of the trigger. Taking an AR platform rifle and putting a smoothbore bbl on it (from the factory) merely puts it in the shotgun definition instead of rifle. The shockwave and the AR based "firearm" workarounds are workarounds because they lack the buttstock and are not intended to be fired from the shoulder. FA says this has a for real buttstock so it would be designed to be fired from the shoulder.

    If my theory is correct, the semi position would be a release trigger, you pull the trigger, no projectile is expelled. You release the trigger, a single projectile is expelled. Rifle (and shotgun) definition says it has to expel a projectile on the pull, not the release. Now we get into the totally separate definition of MG on the Binary position. The language in that reg says an MG fires more than one shot for a "single function of the trigger". Note it doesn't specify pull or release, just "function". ATF has ruled a pull and a release are separate functions, thus pull bang release bang is not an MG. OTOH, if you go back to the rifle definition, you can't pull a trigger unless it is released first, right? I think they used this logic to say the Binary function makes it expel 2 projectiles for each pull as a release is required to make it fire on the pull. 2 shots per single pull of the trigger instead of 1, not a rifle per the definition in the regs. Over 26" OAL, not an AOW. Legally just a Title 1 Firearm. That's the only loophole I can find in the language of the regs.

    Or I could be totally wrong, I guess we'll find out once Shot opens.
    Hmmm that's not a bad guess.. its stupid though lol

  16. #16
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    Along the lines of a release trigger. The idea would be hard to use/control. EVERYBODY pulls the trigger to fire, its just natural.
    Maybe when the bolt cycles back cocking the hammer it also sets the trigger that has a power return. Something that isn't as bad as the Cobray M-11 trigger slap but same idea. You pull the trigger but its to only release the trigger, think mouse trap.
    So you wouldn't be walking around with the trigger pulled waiting to take a shot, though you could.
    Pulling the trigger with a power release, it would still mostly feel like you are pulling the trigger.


    BISHOP

  17. #17
    Registered User StooperZero's Avatar
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    i though maybe.. a telescoped bolt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StooperZero View Post
    i though maybe.. a telescoped bolt.
    Magazine position kills that.

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    Registered User StooperZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hey... View Post
    Magazine position kills that.


    hey i'm just throwing as stupid bullshit out there to justify a gimmick

  20. #20
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    Release triggers are not a natural movement. I used to shoot trap with some guys that had release triggers on their Kriegohf shotguns. I always wondered how many accidental discharges they had when they went bird hunting with a standard trigger. You can learn to use a release trigger, but it is hard to switch back and forth.

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