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Thread: Who says there is no love for the M10?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON MAYHEM View Post
    I certainly don't have my hopes up for anything soon and realize it may never become a reality. I don't think it was unreasonable to assume that this was intended to gauge interest for a production unit though.
    At least for me, since I have no association with the inventor, I don't know what the inventor's intentions might be. Maybe it is a personal project, or the inventor is gauging interest with allowing "Vegas" to post his pictures. Your observation seems very reasonable to me. And while you might understand that creating a "Fat 47" upper would be a huge undertaking, I bet many reading this thread might not realize how involved bringing such a product to market might be. I simply laid out the steps that I think would need to happen. It is too bad that the inventor has not posted here. It certainly is a cool concept.

    Like you, I certainly have some interest in an AK magwell, 7.62X39 style upper. With the line that has already formed (or will be formed, depending on the model of RR) for the standard AR magwell version, it could be two or three years before Lage could get around to such a project. That certainly would seem that another manufacturer could step up and produce something like what has been pictured. So how many would be interested in such an upper? Several have said that they were interested and $3,000 is where the "bar" for such an upper might be. Even if this inventor doesn't step up to producing such an upper for commercial sales, I would think if enough interest was shone here that someone would step up to produce a similar product. Only time will tell.

    Scott

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    I guess I am mostly curious if there is a serious plan to bring this to market or not. A quality (and available) rifle cal upper for the M10 could make big waves in the M10 market.

  3. #23
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    With the Lage MAX-11/15 priced at $3,000, you can be certain there are people strongly considering entering the rifle caliber market. That’s serious money. The road to a retail product is long, and the problems are many. Transitioning from a 3D model to a rough working aluminum upper will happen soon. Extensive Beta testing the single unit has to be done followed by any changes that are identified. Next up is the Alfa model testing, and finally production. Richard displayed the prototype MAX-11/15 the first week of December 2017 and to date no production models have been delivered. This from a manufacturer with multiple products who knows how to bring new ideas to market. I’d say do the math and base a rough time line on those factors.
    You’re asking questions that can’t be readily answered with any degree of accuracy.
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  4. #24
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    And with other business in the mix, competition may bring the prices down some too.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MPA guy View Post
    And with other business in the mix, competition may bring the prices down some too.
    The high retail price is why there is interest in producing other rifle caliber uppers. Money will drive development. A lower price is not likely if you want a belt fed upper.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MPA guy View Post
    And with other business in the mix, competition may bring the prices down some too.
    That certainly is possible. With over 900 on the list for the Max-11/15, could someone else copy the design and sell it for a little less? I would think so. They wouldn't have to do the development that Lage has paid for. There would be those that would be tempted by a 15 or 20% discount. Of course would there be Lage like CS? It is possible. Who knows, with an exact copy you might be able to buy spare parts from Lage.

    With the bar set at $3,000 and 900 on the waiting list, who knows what other innovative products might be coming. Maybe something with a no tool, quick change barrel/caliber option. And as "Vegas" said, wouldn't a belt fed be cool? Of course innovation doesn't come cheap for such a niche' market. Time will tell.

    Scott

  7. #27
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    vegas, neither of the uppers looked like belt feds.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MPA guy View Post
    vegas, neither of the uppers looked like belt feds.
    If it takes Richard 18 months from a working proof of concept prototype to bring to market based on an already approved design, how long will it take to bring a totally new never been done concept from idea to market? Not everyone would post every step of their development of their new design, especially if they are going to patent that design. I would think something new would take two years or more to develop. A provisional patent only lasts for a year. If the list for the Max-11/15 is over 900, then it is obvious that there is a market for something innovative in this market. So if I had an innovative idea, I would wait until the product was almost ready for production, file a provisional patent, then announce it when ready for market. Filing a provisional patent is about 1/4 the price of filing an actual patent, but only gives protection for a year.

    Once the Max-11/15 comes to market, I would think that product will bring collectors that are not interested in a subgun but are interested in full auto to the Mac style family of RRs. I think this will also bring innovators. The patent that Ares has for the M16 has locked that market up. Look at the Lage upper. It is based on the M16 but is not the registered part. What held the Valkyrie Armaments design from wider acceptance? The lower reciever magwell must be modified. The magwell of the Max-11/15 is not the registered part. Or for that matter it is my understanding that the MCR is based on the M60 which is based off the MG-42. Whose to say there isn't someone developing something like that right now, but needs to get closer to production to use provisional patent protection? I think with the bar set at $3,000 for an upper, the risk to bring innovative products to market will have enough of a reward that other products are bound to come to market. But as posted above, it might take another year. It is a very exciting time for Mac style RR owners.

    Scott

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    I love these threads where someone comes up with a new "idea" or "dream". At one time a scraggly-hump shouldered guy threw a stick at something and the first weapon was born. I don't think anything is out of the realm of possibility.
    I absolutely love belt-feds and have studied their evolution for years, but one thing that was missing was a belt-fed shotgun. Sure, you can tie a bunch of Claymores down the side of a deuce and a half and rig a simultaneous trigger and wipe out a jungle for 100 yards, but not practical in the city. So I had a spare 12ga. Auto-loading Winchester 1400 laying around and thought why not feed the belt just in front of the pick up ramp from the mag tube to the chamber. Cut a slot to feed a belt which would feed in from the left side and that way the stock ejector would extract and eject the empty case out the right side and then the bolt would reload another round from the belt. Had it within working distance of being a real belt-fed shotgun, but limited or no machining skills put a halt to the project. But, it was fun doing 20 years ago. However, now you can pick up a Saiga that holds I think 75 rounds and 75 rounds of .25 caliber pellets is a lot of firepower and you don't need a crew to operate it.

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    I’ll buy it whether it’s 50 days 50 weeks or 50 months away. The more that hits the market the better the gun I have. In honor of the corner we’re boxed in, I almost by compulsion buy any upper that comes for the M10/45. Haven’t missed a single one yet.

  11. #31
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    The FAT-47 aluminum prototype has been machined and assembled.
    https://m.facebook.com/VegasSMG/?refl
    Last edited by Vegas SMG; 09-08-2018 at 10:06 AM.
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  13. #33
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    Now once it is completed (I don't see a bolt group) send it off to FATD of the BATF&E for a determination in 120 days then the owner can decide what to do with it next. It looks cool and I bet it is a lot lighter than a S.A.B.R.E.

    Scott

    ETA Upon closer inspection I do see a bolt group. I would still think it would be a good idea to test it. I would also think the raw aluminum would need to be finished. Then an example of the finalized go back to the FATD for an approval before starting public sales. Good luck to the inventor whatever he plans to do with the design.
    Last edited by Brother_Evil; 09-09-2018 at 02:42 AM.

  14. #34
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    Looks like your going to beat Lage to a M10 upper. Looks to have an AR bolt carrier. Is it a copy of mak91’s design using AK mags?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodenword View Post
    Looks like your going to beat Lage to a M10 upper. Looks to have an AR bolt carrier. Is it a copy of mak91’s design using AK mags?
    It certainly looks that way to me.

    Scott

  16. #36
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    This would be nice! Just got some 60 round quad stack mags in for my ak. These would be sweet on FA!

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by macs_imum View Post
    This would be nice! Just got some 60 round quad stack mags in for my ak. These would be sweet on FA!
    Don't hold your breath. I agree, the concept is cool but as far as I know, the builder has not clarified whether this is a personal project or if he intends to produce it commercially. It certainly seems to me there would be a market for such an upper. But when and who will build it, I don't know.

    Scott

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