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Thread: How many “failures” are acceptable?

  1. #21
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    Good info guys, need some help here myself.. have texas single feed 9, maybe 1st mistake, but have both lage uppers... mk2 has recon ord. mags that work with varying success, some had feed lips cut back when purchased, have used only white box win. and doesnt run great... mags are numbered and keep notes on tape on them.. only shot 10/31 once made it thru 3 soumis and had to quit, was chewing brass like a meat grinder and got one stuck so had to quit.. fun when it works but really aggravating...

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    Quote Originally Posted by A&S Conversions View Post
    Buying a machinegun is a big expense. I am glad that you took my comments the way that they were intended. There is a lot of knowledge here. "Vegas SMG" was the guy that taught me about numbering the mags. While it doesn't say anything about break in in the Lage manual (I did look it up) I have found that to be true about most anything mechanical. Lage Manufacturing makes great products. I have heard good things about the FTF Industries magazines. But the original mags are the best. But those are hard to find and over $100 each.

    Personally I find subgun matches fun. Every once in a while I have met guys that take the competition part a little too serious IMHO. The vast majority of the guys I have met through the matches have been great guys that enjoy the competition for the comradery. They are more than willing to share the things they have learned. It is also great to get together with like minded individuals. I feel the same way about this site. I might get ribbed a little for something obvious, but most guys here want to be helpful. Sometimes it is hard to see the forest through the trees. Congratulations on your M10. Hopefully we will start getting some of the determinations for the new stuff soon.

    Scott
    Well said big boy! The whiners that have taken the game waaaaaaaaaay too seriously have turned me away from the matches.
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  3. #23
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    Agreed. One of the reasons I no longer run 3 gun matches. That and the fact the club wanted me to pay yearly dues to just be an RSO for one event a.month, not even to shoot at the range any other time. Wanted all.of us RSOs to pay to volunteer there. Not cool.

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    Never been to a subgun match, but most types of action shooting is a clown show here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poacher View Post
    Never been to a subgun match, but most types of action shooting is a clown show here.
    Agreed. PRS so far seems to have escaped somewhat, but there are still a few whiners. One guy threatened to "beat" a female volunteer RSO's "ass" because she made him reshoot the entire stage, in line with the rules, when a plate fell off the rack after he'd gotten 9 hits in a row (of 10). Outside of that one instance people seem pretty helpful.

    What's the deal with subgun matches?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bret View Post
    You want to eliminate variables. Numbering the magazines and using a known good quality ammo suitable for a subgun will both help you eliminate potential sources of problems.
    Sounds good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaujo View Post
    Just thought I'd add with certain magazines we clearance the magazines, ie let the bolt file a little bit off the feed lips. I did this with Lage MAX-31a and Zmag-S31 mags. The bolt would close over all of them out of the box, it was just rough or sticking at some point. Something to consider. If the mags are all WAY off, I would recommend fixing your gun as this will be better than modifying every upper you buy.

    Modify the cheapest part first, and if a $20 mag catch is casuing this, it's an easy fix. I suggest getting a replacement one and working on that. Might even spring for an extended release from Practial solutions. I filed one to fit my JAWS and I like it.
    Cool. I'll check that out. I hope this isn't a stupid question, but if you file the mag catch to seat the magazines lower won't that allow the magazine to move up in the gun during shooting, possibly causing a stoppage?

    As it is, the current magazines are "locked" in by both the magazine stop not allowing further insertion and the mag catch not allowing downward movement. Wouldn't altering the mag catch introduce up and down "play"?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BEEZMAN View Post
    Good info guys, need some help here myself.. have texas single feed 9, maybe 1st mistake, but have both lage uppers... mk2 has recon ord. mags that work with varying success, some had feed lips cut back when purchased, have used only white box win. and doesnt run great... mags are numbered and keep notes on tape on them.. only shot 10/31 once made it thru 3 soumis and had to quit, was chewing brass like a meat grinder and got one stuck so had to quit.. fun when it works but really aggravating...
    Sounds like this gun could use a trip to Sam at Practical Solutions for a look over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhurst View Post
    Agreed. One of the reasons I no longer run 3 gun matches. That and the fact the club wanted me to pay yearly dues to just be an RSO for one event a.month, not even to shoot at the range any other time. Wanted all.of us RSOs to pay to volunteer there. Not cool.
    Oh we have that D-bag mentality over here in PA. All kinds of stupid shit goes on at the various matches and they wonder why people stop coming. Most are unorganized too.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kramer View Post
    Oh we have that D-bag mentality over here in PA. All kinds of stupid shit goes on at the various matches and they wonder why people stop coming. Most are unorganized too.
    I've almost stopped going to matches in general after having an RSO instruct a shooter to load and make ready when I was down range, allow a lady to break 180 and sweep spectators several times in a match and when setting up the match make it so the shooting angle was such to have missed shots go over the berm, over the next bay, hopefully over the picnic area and off somewhere in the direction of town.

    Now that that moron doesn't seem to be present and the matches start up again I may do more matches.

  10. #30
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    I have only been to a couple matches, but I haven't seen anything like what you guys are describing.
    Maybe we are just more laid back in Texas?
    Well a dog did try to eat the instructors hand at the last match, but in all fairness from the little that I know about the guy he had probably done something to deserve it.

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    If I ever get attacked my dogs, let it be at a subgun match.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurodriver View Post
    I hope this isn't a stupid question, but if you file the mag catch to seat the magazines lower won't that allow the magazine to move up in the gun during shooting, possibly causing a stoppage?

    As it is, the current magazines are "locked" in by both the magazine stop not allowing further insertion and the mag catch not allowing downward movement. Wouldn't altering the mag catch introduce up and down "play"?
    Now lets think this through. How tight is the lock between the mag stops going up and the mag catch stopping down? All it takes is a few thousands clearance. You should not have to file off a 1/4" off the mag catch. With most all the mag fed machineguns I own, if you push up on the mag during firing it will tend to make function problems. But the does tend to be some room between the over insertion stop and the mag catch. From my training for matches, I tend to give the mag a slight tug to make sure the mag catch is latched. One of the times I didn't, when I pulled the trigger on the M10/45, a 30 round Grease Gun mag dropped straight down and hit my left big toe while I was wearing sneakers. Man, did that hurt. It also hurt my time as I was in the shoot house in the MI State Match.

    Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kramer View Post
    Oh we have that D-bag mentality over here in PA. All kinds of stupid shit goes on at the various matches and they wonder why people stop coming. Most are unorganized too.
    There's plenty of stupidity on this end of the state, for sure.

  14. #34
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    Yupper Pa matches have gone down hill bad.

    Stopped going to IDPA shoots due to clickish better then you everyones gear is crap you shouldn't be here unless you have such and such gun.

    Sad thing was it didn't start that way when I 1st started attending. What hurt the worst was it was literally 15 minutes up the road.

    3 gun was very unorganised and the club stopped that after a pretty bad acciedent. It was a long ride anyways over a hr one way.

    Guy got tagged on the neck, face, and forehead, with copper and lead spall/shrapnel off a moving steel plate since he couldn't seem to stay in the safe zone after repeated warnings.

    Only took one guy to ruin that for everyone. Instead of tossing him out they just stopped the matches

    Anywho.

    Ya as mentioned buy the hottest ammo you can for your new MAC and break all the add ons in.

    If you reload even better you can taylor your loads to it.

    Since you already modded the upper i comend you.
    Not many with the balls to make a fix like that right out the gate or make it a DIY project.

    Seems you'll be fine with getting it 100% up and running.
    These guns once right are 100% reliable until you slap on the 22 upper then it's only a few hiccups like you describe.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wetworks View Post
    I have only been to a couple matches, but I haven't seen anything like what you guys are describing.
    Maybe we are just more laid back in Texas?
    Well a dog did try to eat the instructors hand at the last match, but in all fairness from the little that I know about the guy he had probably done something to deserve it.
    The dog latched onto Chili17’s hand was the most notable part of that well run match. Maybe you should call him the pit bull tamer instead of instructor. To be truthful, I was about to pet that dog before Chili17 stepped in and saved me.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighriseATX View Post
    The dog latched onto Chili17’s hand was the most notable part of that well run match. Maybe you should call him the pit bull tamer instead of instructor. To be truthful, I was about to pet that dog before Chili17 stepped in and saved me.
    I was impressed with how calm he was about getting his hand chewed on! And im just kidding about him deserving it, he seems like a funny guy.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wetworks View Post
    I have only been to a couple matches, but I haven't seen anything like what you guys are describing.
    Maybe we are just more laid back in Texas?
    Well a dog did try to eat the instructors hand at the last match, but in all fairness from the little that I know about the guy he had probably done something to deserve it.
    That was the dogs way of saying hello
    Chris Hipes
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    North Texas

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    Yupper Pa matches have gone down hill bad.

    Stopped going to IDPA shoots due to clickish better then you everyones gear is crap you shouldn't be here unless you have such and such gun.

    Sad thing was it didn't start that way when I 1st started attending. What hurt the worst was it was literally 15 minutes up the road.

    3 gun was very unorganised and the club stopped that after a pretty bad acciedent. It was a long ride anyways over a hr one way.

    Guy got tagged on the neck, face, and forehead, with copper and lead spall/shrapnel off a moving steel plate since he couldn't seem to stay in the safe zone after repeated warnings.

    Only took one guy to ruin that for everyone. Instead of tossing him out they just stopped the matches

    Anywho.

    Ya as mentioned buy the hottest ammo you can for your new MAC and break all the add ons in.

    If you reload even better you can taylor your loads to it.

    Since you already modded the upper i comend you.
    Not many with the balls to make a fix like that right out the gate or make it a DIY project.

    Seems you'll be fine with getting it 100% up and running.
    These guns once right are 100% reliable until you slap on the 22 upper then it's only a few hiccups like you describe.

    Commended is a strong word!

    I just know these uppers are pretty simple. It’s basically a big block of steel that slam fires itself over and over again. I wouldn’t have messed with something that had more (any? Lol) moving parts.

    I’m putting another 500-700 rounds through it today. Each mag is numbered and I’ve got many types of ammo with me. Will make a note of what failures occurred with what mags/ammo and try to isolate the problem to ammo or a few mags.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurodriver View Post
    Commended is a strong word!

    I just know these uppers are pretty simple. It’s basically a big block of steel that slam fires itself over and over again. I wouldn’t have messed with something that had more (any? Lol) moving parts.

    I’m putting another 500-700 rounds through it today. Each mag is numbered and I’ve got many types of ammo with me. Will make a note of what failures occurred with what mags/ammo and try to isolate the problem to ammo or a few mags.
    That sounds like an excellent plan.

    Scott

  20. #40
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    Fortunately I’ve got friends with lots of ammo. So I get to do all my T&E using their ammo and the only price is my time spent recording them, haha.

    Put 720 rounds through it today and had three failures - two double feeds and one failure to ignite the primer (147gr)

    Two were with the same magazine using mixed random 115gr ammo. Once we switched to known brand 115gr and 124gr (Winchester White box, S&B) this mag shot another 90 rounds with no issues.

    One was with a known good mag with Speer 147gr but only Unsuppressed. I didn’t have too much of this ammo but it functioned fine with this same ammo and same magazine with the suppressor. This is the second time I’ve had a weak primer strike with this ammo. speer 147gr Lawman. I’m wondering if these primer cups are just harder.

    I’m fine with a less than 0.5% failure rate anyway but I’m pretty sure if I just ran quality 124gr ammo it wouldn’t have any malfunctions at all.

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