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Thread: Belt fed Macs in our future 2021?

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    Belt fed Macs in our future 2021?

    Any adapters made to marry Shrike 556 uppers to Mac lowers?

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    Yes

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    Correct answer is yes and no.
    Made? Yes

    On the market for sale NO!

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    The tenko adapter will allow a fight lite belt fed upper. I don’t remember the specifics of a shrike, was that the older version of fightlite upper? There’s a video of tenko adapter running a belt fed upper. Scott might chime in and share that video of it shooting.
    Here’s a link to fightlite belt fed
    https://dealernfa.com/

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    The multiple people with Skrikes I know can never seem to get them to run right.

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    Here is the address https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zU5XkqnewFw for those that want to see the video of my brother shooting shooting his Shrike with the Tenko 10-16 adapter. I searched "Tenko 10-16 Shrike " and that video was the first site listed. As PP, we are still waiting on a determination that would allow private sales of the Tenko 10-16 from the FATD. We are working on a belt fed model but development has stopped on any future models as all our capital is tied up with the original design.

    Unless someone has copied our patented design, we are the only "adapter" that uses AR-15/M16 upper receivers coming to market that I am aware of. To be fair, Richard has posted that a belt fed upper would be the next "logical step " but like us I would think that he is still waiting for the determination for the Max-11/15 and Max-10/15 uppers. But you would have to ask him as to a time line of his products.

    I would ask those that have advocated for sales without a determination not turn this thread into another debate. Bring the Tenko adapter to market would be our liability, no one else's. If you feel differently, please make your own thread. When we will get to market will be up to the FATD. Until then we will patiently wait. Thank you for your interest.

    Scott
    Manager A&S Conversions L.L.C.

    ETA Geoff Herring took $1,500 deposits for the Shrike. My cousin waited around ten years for the notice to send in the remaining $1,000 . Any one that wanted a refund of their deposit received the funds. Basically he got to use everyone's money interest free for ten years. He brought other products to market within the ten years but the Shrike was never quite right to bring to production. During this time he moved the company to Florida. When he finally produced the upper, after filling the orders that had waited ten years new orders were $5,000. Oh and the company name and the name of the upper was changed to try and distance the current product from all the bad press about Ares Defense and the Shrike.

    Because of all this, I don't own a Shrike or a Fightlite belt fed upper. I have a DIAS so I'm not tied to a RR. I bought a Valkyrie Armaments belt fed system. I have a water cooled upper that I had converted for use with the beltfed system that uses a lower with KNS spade grips. I also have a MGI modular upper with three 14.5" heavy fluted barrels that I can swap after a 200 round belt. I prefer the modular aspect of the Valkyrie Armaments system. I need to adapt the Valkyrie Armaments system to the Tenko adapter. It is on my list.

    Sadly it has been hard for me to work on such projects. We are coming up on the two year anniversary of the original aluminum submission. We still have no idea when we will get to market. This has been very challenging for me of late. Hopefully some day soon we'll be able to get some adapters out the door.
    Last edited by A&S Conversions; 09-30-2020 at 09:05 AM.

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    Another belt fed for the Ingram pattern submachine guns that was presented for consideration was the potential for a Freedom Ordnance FM-9 type 9mm device. There was only very limited interest, so the device was apparently not pursued.

    MHO, YMMV, etc.

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    Well if the 9mm belt fed is desired, then the AR version can be run on the Tenko. Here's a video of it running. Thanks again for a member here allowing the use of his uppy.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k_6PoOZDTzI

    Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by A&S Conversions View Post
    Well if the 9mm belt fed is desired, then the AR version can be run on the Tenko. Here's a video of it running. Thanks again for a member here allowing the use of his uppy.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k_6PoOZDTzI

    Scott

    Whoa! How am I just learning about your AR upper adapter? Take my money! Will email Tina ASAP to get on the waitlist!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurodriver View Post
    Whoa! How am I just learning about your AR upper adapter? Take my money! Will email Tina ASAP to get on the waitlist!
    Because the end of the month will be the two year anniversary of our original submission of the aluminum version of the Tenko. We submitted a 3D printed proof of concept in 2017 that took 108 days for a determination. We further developed an aluminum version and submitted it October 2018. We were informed by the Chief of the Firearms Ammunition Technology Division that the FATD was no longer evaluating just the submission. The FATD requires that all submissions be installed in a complete firearm. The FATD acknowledged receiving a complete firearm with upper installed on one of my Transferable M10s on March 6, 2019. We are still waiting for a positive determination so we can sell the 80 units we have.

    There are those that have argued that because of the 3D printed version we should stop waiting and sell to the general public. We floated the idea of sales with a release form. At $2,995 retail price of the basic Tenko adapter kit, we had four customers that were interested. I don't know as that would have covered the legal fees of having a NFA specific lawyer write up such a release form. Since we didn't contact a lawyer, I have no idea whether such a release form would be legal.

    We would love to "take your money " but selling a firearm accessory without a determination that says I can, could land us in big league trouble with the BATF&E. We have about half our net worth tied up in this project. We can stay afloat at our current level of expenditures. A lawsuit/charges from the BATF&E would put us under. So we wait. There is nothing more we can do.

    Lage Manufacturing is selling their Max-11/15. They submitted their Max-11A1/15 and Max-10/15 August of 2019. They are still waiting for their determination. There was also a Fat-47 that submitted I think spring of 2019 but have not heard anything from the owner. The Fat-47 is an open bolt upper for the M10 similar in function to the S.A.B.R.E./Max-15 style upper based on the AR-15/M16 mechanism but shoots 7.62x39 using AK mags and drums.

    There is also another upper being made by "theredneckengineer" which is also based on the S.A.B.R.E./Max-15 mechanism called the "UltiMac". This unit features a modular magwell. The last I knew the sales of this upper were going ahead with a release form with a retail price around $1,000 +/-.

    With the Slidefire debacle, "poof" it is a machinegun, lawsuits, court finds it is not a machinegun and is an AR lower (and for that matter Mac style lower) a firearm according to the definition of firearm, put the BATF&E in a tissy. So "if we don't do anything, we can't be wrong" seems to be the mantra at the BATF&E. When will this get straightened out? Who knows. We are patiently awaiting. I hope that this answers your basic question. There is more to be found about the specifics of each upper here in this forum. Good luck with your searching, if you choose to do so.

    Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by A&S Conversions View Post
    Well if the 9mm belt fed is desired, then the AR version can be run on the Tenko. Here's a video of it running. Thanks again for a member here allowing the use of his uppy.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k_6PoOZDTzI

    Scott
    IIRC, the goal was to have a 9mm belt fed upper that would be stand alone, at its own cost of about $1,900. Also, the Freedom Ordnance FM-9 is semi as well as full auto capable. Presumably, the product that they anticipated producing for the Ingram submachine guns would be as well. As I understand it, the Tenko is a full auto only design, which is a deal breaker for me for any caliber or upper.

    MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well.

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    I always wanted a belt fed until I realized I’d have to hand link the ammo one by one. I think I’ll stick with multiple drums if I want to dump tons of rounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondAmend View Post
    IIRC, the goal was to have a 9mm belt fed upper that would be stand alone, at its own cost of about $1,900. Also, the Freedom Ordnance FM-9 is semi as well as full auto capable. Presumably, the product that they anticipated producing for the Ingram submachine guns would be as well. As I understand it, the Tenko is a full auto only design, which is a deal breaker for me for any caliber or upper.

    MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well.
    It is my understanding that Freedom Ordinance has said that they were not going to build a 9mm belt fed upper for the M10/M11 family of firearms. I have heard that there are around 8,000 M10s, 17,000+ M11/NINEs, and less than 2,000 M11 machineguns in the registry. There are a few M10 open bolt semis. Building an upper for such a small market would not be cheap. The other M10/M11 semis are closed bolt. That is a whole different mechanism. If you want a semi 9mm belt fed, buy the AR version. For anything else, I would ask Freedom Ordinance directly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant435 View Post
    I always wanted a belt fed until I realized I’d have to hand link the ammo one by one. I think I’ll stick with multiple drums if I want to dump tons of rounds.
    There is nothing like dumping a belt to really experience full auto. A 100 round drum is around 10 seconds. A 500 round belt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFcxuOzsoXA is around a minute. Of course that was a $200 minute. I have around $7,000 in that water cooled spade grips semi auto belt fed, beyond the cost of the DIAS.

    Scott

    Scott
    Last edited by A&S Conversions; 10-02-2020 at 01:45 PM.

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    As of February, 2016, there were 175,977 machine guns in the Registry. The biggest "model" being M16 of various types at somewhere around 50K. The "MAC" (sic, Ingram) family is second at about 38K-40K. Thus, I believe that your MAC total is at least 10,000 shy.

    As indicated, there were 17K factory made SWD M11/9's. SWD also made 3.8K M11-380s. The MAC, RPB, Leatherwood, Jersey Arms, (am I forgetting any other manufacturer?), and Form 1 subguns produced from semis and parts kits make up the remainder. MAC produced quite a few M11-380s, but as discussed in "The MAC Man" a number of them were sold overseas. RPB made a lot of M11-380s from MAC flats. These figures are, for the most part, general consensus numbers that appeared on the Subguns website at various times before it was bought out by Midwest Tactical.

    And FWIW, the lack of a "semi" setting is why I have no interest in such historically significant and otherwise interesting subguns such as the MP40, STEN, and M3/M3A1.

    MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondAmend View Post
    As of February, 2016, there were 175,977 machine guns in the Registry. The biggest "model" being M16 of various types at somewhere around 50K. The "MAC" (sic, Ingram) family is second at about 38K-40K. Thus, I believe that your MAC total is at least 10,000 shy.

    As indicated, there were 17K factory made SWD M11/9's. SWD also made 3.8K M11-380s. The MAC, RPB, Leatherwood, Jersey Arms, (am I forgetting any other manufacturer?), and Form 1 subguns produced from semis and parts kits make up the remainder. MAC produced quite a few M11-380s, but as discussed in "The MAC Man" a number of them were sold overseas. RPB made a lot of M11-380s from MAC flats. These figures are, for the most part, general consensus numbers that appeared on the Subguns website at various times before it was bought out by Midwest Tactical.

    And FWIW, the lack of a "semi" setting is why I have no interest in such historically significant and otherwise interesting subguns such as the MP40, STEN, and M3/M3A1.

    MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well.
    To be clear, whether a registered receiver, DIAS, or LL conversion, they all use the same upper receiver dimensions. So whether full or semi, the upper receivers would fit. The various models of the Mac style family of RRs have different dimensions. So specific receivers would be needed to be made for each model with basically no semi automatic sales. I am more than willing to concede to your numbers. Plus or minus 10,000 possible buyers is not that big in the scope of the firearms industry, especially when spread over three different models. Lage Manufacturing uses lot numbers instead of serial numbers. I would guess that they have sold +/- maybe 2,000 uppers total, over the course of more than ten years. I would be ecstatic if I sold to 5% of total owners.

    BTW, you are misinformed. The Tenko adapter is select fire. It just can not be used with an open bolt semi. It is specifically designed to be used with machinegun receivers only. We have not bothered with showing the Tenko firing semi very much. There are many more semi automatic firearms that are more ergonomic. The buyers of the Tenko adapter are much more concerned with full auto function.

    Scott

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    PS, the Sten is select fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skoda View Post
    PS, the Sten is select fire.
    Thanks for clarifying. Years ago a guy wanted to sell me a Sten and indicated that it was "SAFE" and "AUTO" only, and when I test fired it that was all there was. The gun may have been worn or broken. I didn't buy it. That's my Sten experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A&S Conversions View Post
    ...
    BTW, you are misinformed. The Tenko adapter is select fire. It just can not be used with an open bolt semi. It is specifically designed to be used with machinegun receivers only. We have not bothered with showing the Tenko firing semi very much. There are many more semi automatic firearms that are more ergonomic. The buyers of the Tenko adapter are much more concerned with full auto function.

    Scott
    Thanks for clarifying. Select fire capability makes the Tenko a more attractive potential choice.

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