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Thread: pricing an M10 semi auto open bolt for an estate

  1. #1
    Registered User rentprop1's Avatar
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    pricing an M10 semi auto open bolt for an estate

    guys got an 81 series RPB semi auto M10 open bolt, with a shroud and a couple of Cobray marked mags, this is NOT a For Sale post, I believe its already spoken for just trying to help out an attorney friend price it for an Estate. old man owned since new, no box or anything, doesn't look beat up, bench checks ok for function.....a few pics below. apologize for the upside down pics, I can figure it out
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  2. #2
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    Check Goonbroker for recent sales and subtract 10-20% depending on how fast you want to sell it.

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    $1500 to sell within 2 weeks.

    Realistically itís a lot for a crappy slug of a pistol.

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    Notice it is set up for a stock.

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    ^ missed that. Good catch.

    Check the disconnector spur before you get too far involved.

  6. #6
    Registered User KickStand's Avatar
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    Someone likely had a good ole time with that Mac. The rear of the receiver appears to be cut for a stock and the already mentioned stock hardware is present.

    I would say $1400ish. The cut back will likely hurt the value but at least remove the stock hardware.

  7. #7
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    Just having the stock block sitting in the lower is a no no. I doubt the alphabet boys would care... unless they wanted you for other grievances, but technically it's a felony to have it in there. Luckily it doesn't look welded in. It's just held in the lower under spring pressure. Pop it out and sell it for 1000. Someone would buy it want it just to break the tip of the disconnector with some pliers in a SHTF event.
    Last edited by strobro32; 11-06-2020 at 05:53 PM.

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    I thought open bolt semis are a no-no due to the ease of converting them to full auto.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    I thought open bolt semis are a no-no due to the ease of converting them to full auto.
    only M-10 open bolts mfg. after 1982 are considered MG's ......those made prior are as kosher as any other semi automatic pistol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Villafuego View Post
    only M-10 open bolts mfg. after 1982 are considered MG's ......those made prior are as kosher as any other semi automatic pistol
    That is not my understanding. There was a guy selling pre-'81 DIASs. He went to trial. The judge ruled that there is no mechanism for the ATF to "grandfather" anything. That is only something that Congress can do. So even if someone has documentation of ownership prior to 1981, if the specific DIAS is not part of a collection of parts that makes up a machinegun, then that unregistered DIAS would be considered an unregistered machinegun.

    This opens up a an issue that the ATF has ruled that open bolt is automatically a machinegun. If the ATF has no jurisdiction to "grandfather" anything then it would seem that all open bolt firearms would be treated like DIASs. So they would either be registered as a machinegun and be transferable or be considered unregistered machineguns. To me that would seriously effect the market value of such firearms. To me given these circumstances, somewhere along the line open bolt semiautomatic pistols are bound to be scrutinized.

    Whether that will be next week, next month, next year, or 20 years from now, I don't know. As a potential buyer, this is something that I would want to know. There was an open bolt M10 at a gun shop local to me. The asking price was $2,200. I would be upset if I found out that the pistol that I paid around two grand for was contraband.

    All I am stating is that the open bolt semiautomatic pistols have a potential legal issue. This is simply my opinion. If you are not concerned, then buy, sell, trade all of them you want.

    Scott

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    Given that it appears to be set up for a stock, ask if there is any paperwork (tax stamp) that would indicate that it is a registered SBR

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    I thought open bolt semis are a no-no due to the ease of converting them to full auto.
    They are contraband due to a series of legal Case Law since they were banned, but it seems to go unenforced.
    NFA Firearms: In A World Of Compromise, Some Don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A&S Conversions View Post
    That is not my understanding. There was a guy selling pre-'81 DIASs. He went to trial. The judge ruled that there is no mechanism for the ATF to "grandfather" anything. That is only something that Congress can do. So even if someone has documentation of ownership prior to 1981, if the specific DIAS is not part of a collection of parts that makes up a machinegun, then that unregistered DIAS would be considered an unregistered machinegun.

    This opens up a an issue that the ATF has ruled that open bolt is automatically a machinegun. If the ATF has no jurisdiction to "grandfather" anything then it would seem that all open bolt firearms would be treated like DIASs. So they would either be registered as a machinegun and be transferable or be considered unregistered machineguns. To me that would seriously effect the market value of such firearms. To me given these circumstances, somewhere along the line open bolt semiautomatic pistols are bound to be scrutinized.

    Whether that will be next week, next month, next year, or 20 years from now, I don't know. As a potential buyer, this is something that I would want to know. There was an open bolt M10 at a gun shop local to me. The asking price was $2,200. I would be upset if I found out that the pistol that I paid around two grand for was contraband.

    All I am stating is that the open bolt semiautomatic pistols have a potential legal issue. This is simply my opinion. If you are not concerned, then buy, sell, trade all of them you want.

    Scott
    The Dodson case with DIAS's is unrelated for 2 reasons.
    It was established that he was manufacturing them past the 1981 "cutoff", and the 1998 court case that effectively ruled all DIAS's, regardless of manufacture date, were MG's due to the passage of 922(o).

    I collect open bolt semis ......not just RPB's .......Demros, Apaches, Gevarms, Voeres, etc.....and I'm not the least bit concerned

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    I guess a last question is why are those things collectable? I get something like old revolvers, but a crappy old semi auto mac? For $1500? A gun that was worth $75 when it was manufactured. I've got a full auto M11/9 and the value is
    1. Its a NFA registered machine gun
    2. They slapped so many together in 1986 that it makes sense for there to be a market for improved uppers. Basically, you can take what is a 9mm shotgun and turn it into a pretty nice machine gun for $1000. Or a M-16 for $3000.

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    Registered User DistalRadius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A&S Conversions View Post
    That is not my understanding. There was a guy selling pre-'81 DIASs. He went to trial. The judge ruled that there is no mechanism for the ATF to "grandfather" anything. That is only something that Congress can do. So even if someone has documentation of ownership prior to 1981, if the specific DIAS is not part of a collection of parts that makes up a machinegun, then that unregistered DIAS would be considered an unregistered machinegun.

    This opens up a an issue that the ATF has ruled that open bolt is automatically a machinegun. If the ATF has no jurisdiction to "grandfather" anything then it would seem that all open bolt firearms would be treated like DIASs. So they would either be registered as a machinegun and be transferable or be considered unregistered machineguns. To me that would seriously effect the market value of such firearms. To me given these circumstances, somewhere along the line open bolt semiautomatic pistols are bound to be scrutinized.

    Whether that will be next week, next month, next year, or 20 years from now, I don't know. As a potential buyer, this is something that I would want to know. There was an open bolt M10 at a gun shop local to me. The asking price was $2,200. I would be upset if I found out that the pistol that I paid around two grand for was contraband.

    All I am stating is that the open bolt semiautomatic pistols have a potential legal issue. This is simply my opinion. If you are not concerned, then buy, sell, trade all of them you want.

    Scott

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villafuego View Post
    The Dodson case with DIAS's is unrelated for 2 reasons.
    The Dodson case is relevant as the 6th Circuit, like the 10th has now held ATF does not have authority to overrule a Congressional statute based on date of MFG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Villafuego View Post
    I collect open bolt semis ......not just RPB's .......Demros, Apaches, Gevarms, Voeres, etc.....and I'm not the least bit concerned
    The only OBS affected here are the three named in the 81-X rulings. MAC, KG and YAK.

    As long as these guns are quietly passed around, nothing will happen, like many other guns . Take out an ad in Shotgun News, and you basically invited the man into your life. One only has to look at the complete Dodson case (specifically how ATF MADE a MG out of an incomplete parts kit), to see how bad things can end if .gov goes after you.
    NFA Firearms: In A World Of Compromise, Some Don't.

  17. #17
    Registered User KickStand's Avatar
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    Atf is a joke.
    They don’t meet the legal definition of a machine gun; therefore, they are not one. Atf said the open bolts made before X date 1982 are legal.
    Hasn’t the atf recently lost cases bc the individual possessed the ar15 lower receiver only and not the upper and that’s technically not a firearm according to the legal definition. I guess with that logic you could have an extra hole in your lower with no upper and it wouldn’t even be considered a firearm.

    There’s open bolt semis for sale all day, every day on gunbroker.



    At the end of the day the atf can change their mind anytime, the positive thing is they don’t meet the legal definition of a MG, there’s paperwork from atf regarding them behind legal for well over 30 years and atf is 100% aware of these guns in the market.
    Last edited by KickStand; 11-10-2020 at 01:27 PM.

  18. #18
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    Bump Stocks didn't meet the definition of an MG either, until ATF changed the definition

  19. #19
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    That's about the 5th one I've seen setup for a stock.

    Bet back then I bet it was OEM just sold without one wasn't like you could order a stock on the internet then.

    Value?

    probably 1500 on the internet LGS had one for 1299.99 one week it was gone the next ( someone bought it)

    I wouldn't worry to much about it being illegal since they are all over the place along with other OB pistols and rifles. The cut off date was 82 and it's proven to be made before that.
    Same with the stock cut out I've seen a bunch like that just figured it's how they rolled off the line, I've yet to read a story of someone getting busted for the holes there.

    As mentioned above people collect them like I collect the old Colt cased BP guns.
    There is collecting then there is shooting.

    As to why someone would collect or want a pre 82 OB gun there are reasons.

  20. #20
    Registered User KickStand's Avatar
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    All semi open bolts pistol (SAP) did NOT come from the factory with the stock hardware; furthermore, the back plate would need material removed to fit a wire stock.

    The carbine version did have a stock.

    No big deal. Just remove the hardware. The modified back plate will likely hurt the value some but not much.


    If it’s an (SAP) with a modified rear plate then it was likely ILLEGALLY modified at one point; however, it’s possible to have been SBR at one point. Unfortunately this was common.

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