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Thread: Happy New Year Especially Those Waiting For A Positive Determination

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottinTexas View Post
    Some risks aren't worth taking, especially if your business, family and employees could lose everything if you fail.
    It appears the choice is possible failure... or certain failure. The only risk is failing to attempt success.
    Live BRAVE, Live FREE!

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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottinTexas View Post
    Some risks aren't worth taking, especially if your business, family and employees could lose everything if you fail.
    Scott, Look into setting up an independent entity that totally shields you, your family, and current enterprise from any liabilities. I used to work for a company that was, on paper, six different companies. One owned the building, one the shelving, another the supplies on the shelving, yet another the production equipment, and finally one that made the product. Then there was the transportation company. It was all to prevent the whole thing being taken in case of losing a lawsuit. It's done all over, especially in the USA where lawyers reign. You need a cleaver lawyer and accountant.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by skoda View Post
    Scott, Look into setting up an independent entity that totally shields you, your family, and current enterprise from any liabilities. I used to work for a company that was, on paper, six different companies. One owned the building, one the shelving, another the supplies on the shelving, yet another the production equipment, and finally one that made the product. Then there was the transportation company. It was all to prevent the whole thing being taken in case of losing a lawsuit. It's done all over, especially in the USA where lawyers reign. You need a cleaver lawyer and accountant.
    Your point is understood and yes, prudent.

    I am not in the business so my opinion about this is rather meaningless; I personally don't have a stake in it.

    And I am really coming at this less from a liability perspective (which is significant) but more from an investment perspective. The time and effort and cost to develop and get approval for any gun part like these and the lack of success to bring them to market has been documented here and elsewhere countless times.

    The reality is that you have to go into an endeavor like this with the mindset that you are almost certain to never see any financial return on your investment. Nothing wrong with trying if it only impacts yourself, but if you are risking the paychecks and or financial well-being of others driven by ideology or emotion rather than cold reality then maybe it's a bad idea.
    My name is actually Scott and I really do live in Texas.

    I know, not very creative but it is factual.

    By the way - Facebook is truly evil; resist the urge to participate.

  4. #24
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    That's why you need a liability and financial wall between you and the operation. If it is shut down by any means then the rest of your life can go on.

    Now whether it makes financial sense to come up with an accessory depends on the accessory and the inventor's personal risk tolerance. Going in without a determination, or as many have seen a determination reversal, is just one of the many risks to be evaluated before commencing beyond the what-if stage. Richard Lage and Tom Bowers (Akins Accelerator) could probably tell you tons about that.

  5. #25
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    The NFA market is very small (maybe a couple hundred thousand weapons in all). Then shrink that market down to a specific category of weapon (i.e. Macs), then shrink it down to the specific weapon (i.e. m11/9), then develop a product that enough people in that very small segment will buy at a price that still allows for a profit. A few have done it (i.e. Lage), but it’s almost impossible. When you add in the potential of losing not only your investment, your personal wealth (through litigation to protect your freedom), and potentially your very freedom itself (i.e. federal prison), I for one, don’t blame any of these guys for waiting for a determination. It’s easy for someone to say “I’d do this, or I’d do that,” when Your Ass isn’t on the line...

  6. #26
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    I would imagine at some point theres a sliding scale where the wait wouldn't be worth the ATF opinion. If the Biden ATF administration continues the current path of keeping their lips sealed on approvals theres tipping point for some manufactures to go ahead and release because they cant afford the wait.

    I think this might be an example. No ATF approval but their lawyer says its totally fine.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cuougs2GmGA

    Id be fairly surprised if it didn't end up the same as the bump stock.

  7. #27
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    This does smell like the bumpstock design. One action one shot does not apply. That may (or may not) be the decider on legality of this type of trigger vs. the Franklin Arms.

    On the other hand, 95% probability they all get declared contraband by March.
    My name is actually Scott and I really do live in Texas.

    I know, not very creative but it is factual.

    By the way - Facebook is truly evil; resist the urge to participate.

  8. #28
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    I don't think we are going to see any movement on determinations until after "DC" (this includes the Tech Branch in Virginia) is declared Covid free. Form approvals can be done remotely, but hands on evaluating of new products cannot.
    Richard Lage
    Lage Manufacturing, L.L.C.
    www.max-11.com

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by m11stuff@hotmail.com View Post
    I don't think we are going to see any movement on determinations until after "DC" (this includes the Tech Branch in Virginia) is declared Covid free. Form approvals can be done remotely, but hands on evaluating of new products cannot.
    Too bad someone won’t start an “Undetermined LLC” who could pay to license your upper design, pay you to manufacture it, then sell it under a waiver to mitigate the risk to you.
    Live BRAVE, Live FREE!

    “To abandon FACTS is to abandon FREEDOM”

  10. #30
    Registered User xdamagedx's Avatar
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    I'd buy a 3d printed one and fit it myself

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by skoda View Post
    Scott, Look into setting up an independent entity that totally shields you, your family, and current enterprise from any liabilities. I used to work for a company that was, on paper, six different companies. One owned the building, one the shelving, another the supplies on the shelving, yet another the production equipment, and finally one that made the product. Then there was the transportation company. It was all to prevent the whole thing being taken in case of losing a lawsuit. It's done all over, especially in the USA where lawyers reign. You need a cleaver lawyer and accountant.
    Are you familiar with the legal concept called "piercing the corporate veil"?

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondAmend View Post
    Are you familiar with the legal concept called "piercing the corporate veil"?
    I am still the one that submitted the aluminum version. If our LLC sold a Tenko adapter to Practical Solutions and they sold it to you, then you could not sue us. But Practical Solutions has no interest in selling a firearm accessory without a determination for the same reason that I would not sell without a determination. For the money part we could go bankrupt. The bigger concern would be if our Tenko adapter was determined to be a machinegun. LLC or not, the BATF&E would come looking for me. A fine would be the least of my problems if that were the case.

    Scott

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