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Thread: The New "swapping uppers" ATF Letter

  1. #1
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    The New "swapping uppers" ATF Letter

    I think it's time this got its own thread. This seems like a major change, and I for one lack clarity regarding the extent of it's reach.

    Does this mean we have to send a letter every time we equip a non OEM upper on a Mac receiver?

    Does this only apply to rifle caliber uppers?

    If you install a longer barrel on an OEM upper do they need to be notified?

    If you use a side cocker?

    If I sent a letter when I attached my max11a1/15, but I change my buttstock which affects the OAL do I need to send a new letter?

    Last edited by Gaujo; 05-11-2022 at 03:23 PM.
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    Text:

    ATF
    National Firearms Act Division
    244 Needy Road
    Martinsburg, WV 25405

    Dear Sirs,
    I have a legally registered (insert manufacturer's name and model and serial number, eg: RPB M-11A1, S/N 0000001) machine gun in .380 ACP caliber.
    I will be attaching a Lage Manufacturing, L.L.C. MAX-11A1/15 caliber conversion device to this machine gun. When the conversion device is attached, the caliber, barrel length and overall length will temporarily be changed to:

    Caliber- 5.56 x 45mm
    Change in Barrel length- 10-1/2"
    Change in Overall Length- (enter your overall length from end of buttstock to end of barrel)
    Sincerely yours,

    (Sign your name)

    Mail to:
    ATF
    National Firearms Act Division 244 Needy Road
    Martinsburg, WV 25405
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    I mean…you can “own it” and “not attach” and never send shit in….then they don’t know anything

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    Maybe they just want to be able to identify it when one is found after a theft/crime/etc.. You know many of the agents don't know much about guns. A 5.56 20 inch barrel might confuse someone that is looking at the gun and the record for the serial number says .380 5 inch barrel. I don't know, just throwing that out there.

    But it is strange because you can change so many things on it. What if you have the .380 upper and original stock that you sometimes use for your Falling Down shooting party but then switch to a 5.56 10 inch for Commando Day, then a 20 inch 300 Blackout for SEAL Sniper training. Then there is the buttstock part - none up to a 15 inch LOP Magpul PRS. If they want a letter each time you change something they would be buried in paper and the record would be a worse mess than it is now. This is why less is more and Keep It Simple Stupid is the way to go.

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    Things I will never do for $1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Things I will never do for $1000
    This.
    While I respect Lage and understand their obligation to inclued that in their manual, until I see something official from the GOV, it ain’t happening.

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    now, this going back 20 or so years ago, but a manufacturer, don't know who, made a MG42 "upper" that a MAC10 lower could be attached to the bottom of it, making it a fully auto belt fed..........ATF put a kabash on that

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    Why don't we just poke the skunk...

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    Quote Originally Posted by har1340 View Post
    Why don't we just poke the skunk...
    go right ahead, no one is stopping you

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    Quote Originally Posted by A&S Conversions View Post
    For some background, I was traveling by air with my registered receiver machinegun to go to a subgun competition. Since I couldn't travel with the configuration on my Form 4, I called and asked my Examiner about it. He told me that I could measure the configuration that I was traveling with and fax it to him and he would enter it into the file. He also asked if I had other configurations. I told him I had many caliber and barrel length configurations. He suggested that I make a chart of all the different configurations that I had. So if questioned by Law Enforcement, the ATF could confirm the caliber, OAL, and barrel length configuration I had my RR in. Yes, changing an upper is not considered a permanent change, but notifying ATF of the confirmation of your registered receiver machinegun could be in, if Law Enforcement wishes to check, could save everyone some confusion.

    Scott



    Quote Originally Posted by A&S Conversions View Post
    I am just relating my experience. The same could be said about my Colt M16. Push two pins and remove the 20" 5.56X45 upper and install a DOE 9mm upper. That significantly changes the caliber, barrel, and overall length, quite a bit. An unknowledgeable Law Enforcement Officer sees that my registered receiver is very different from my paperwork. A quick call to ATF and everything is clarified. If I have notified the NFA Branch that I have such a configuration for my registered receiver. The Lage rifle caliber upper is vastly different from the factory configuration. Again with a notification to the NFA Branch of such a configuration, a conformation call, and any confusion of configuration is cleared up. Richard has passed on the information that ATF wants. Whether the buyer complies is up to them.

    Scott
    PS: I didn't see this thread until after I posted on the other thread.

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    That's helpful Scott. I don't really care if the ATF is aware that I have 50 different configurations as long as I don't have to send a letter every time I swap one.
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    I don’t care if they know, but I’m not going to send a letter each time I change or buy a new upper or try a different stock. These are not permanent changes.

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    It is my understanding that this is voluntary. You certainly don't need to notify them every time you change configurations. What they would like is a listing of the possible configurations that you have. Why, so if Law Enforcement calls with a different configuration than that listed on the Form 4, they could confirm that configuration. If that has no appeal to you, don't bother.

    Scott

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    Maybe Richard can tell us if the letter was the AFT’s idea or his lawyers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donut77donut View Post
    Maybe Richard can tell us if the letter was the AFT’s idea or his lawyers?
    From the other thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by m11stuff@hotmail.com View Post
    This was included as part of the determination letter from BATFE regarding the MAX-11A1/15 and MAX-10/15. Their word was “must”. They did not retroactively require it for the MAX-11/15, but logic would dictate that it would make sense to do it for them as well.

    This is not something we are going to argue with BATFE about.

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    You ought to send a letter every time you swap configurations. We all should.

    Lots of time filing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LawBob View Post
    You ought to send a letter every time you swap configurations. We all should.

    Lots of time filing.
    Then getting a stamp may take even loooooonger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaujo View Post
    That's helpful Scott. I don't really care if the ATF is aware that I have 50 different configurations as long as I don't have to send a letter every time I swap one.
    That's not the point. The point is that Lage (or whomever) has already went through all this BS and got it approved. WHY THE FUCK do you want to poke the hornets nest, as unpredictable as the ATF can be??? Leave things alone before you screw it up for everyone. At least you (and everyone else) have a leg to stand on... Until someone sends an unnecessary letter asking for clarification. The ONLY letters in instances like this should be the ones from the Mfg's that are getting approval to sell a product. Period. Think about it.

    ATF wants to check your shit? Did you change a configuration? Put it back to original if it makes you feel better, but for Christ's sake, don't send letters to a bunch of morons who can individually rock your world any way they can individually see fit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman96 View Post
    That's not the point. The point is that Lage (or whomever) has already went through all this BS and got it approved. WHY THE FUCK do you want to poke the hornets nest, as unpredictable as the ATF can be??? Leave things alone before you screw it up for everyone. At least you (and everyone else) have a leg to stand on... Until someone sends an unnecessary letter asking for clarification. The ONLY letters in instances like this should be the ones from the Mfg's that are getting approval to sell a product. Period. Think about it.

    ATF wants to check your shit? Did you change a configuration? Put it back to original if it makes you feel better, but for Christ's sake, don't send letters to a bunch of morons who can individually rock your world any way they can individually see fit.
    Calm down young grasshopper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman96 View Post
    ATF wants to check your shit? Did you change a configuration? Put it back to original if it makes you feel better, but for Christ's sake, don't send letters to a bunch of morons who can individually rock your world any way they can individually see fit.
    Yup.

    The risk here is if you send that letter, and a few years from now ATF, or worse a court decides that a caliber, BBL length or OAL change is a taxable event, your gun is now a known post sample.

    Keep in mind a caliber or OAL change on a silencer is already a taxable event. Not to hard to see ATF or a court connect the dots and say if it is for one NFA item it is for all of them.
    NFA Firearms: In A World Of Compromise, Some Don't.

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