Knob Creek Fall 2009 match feedback

[Paul Winters]

Actually, I suggested the gun classes years ago. The older NFA/AC3A casses were flawed and created issues. Open was anything goes, and it was fine for optics. Modern was any gun manufactured and designed after 1945. Classic was any gun manufactured and designed on or before 1945. That left some guns in questions. The Swedish K, Port Said, and S&W 76 landed in different classes. The Sterling is an updated Sten, but again different classes. When money and placement are on the line, to have a gun listed in the wrong class creates...issues. A Range Officer needs to clearly ientify a gun to its class as the shooter may not know. My solution was to suggest breaking the guns down by how they work. A gun is either Open bolt or Closed bolt and can be easily verified. Then there is the high rate which is designed and manufactured for a cyclic rate above 900. That again had issues as it is hard for a Mac, MP5K, or other high Rate Uzi to compete against a Thompson 1921 which,by design is a much more controllable gun.

The mag capacity is how it has been since way before my time. Some guns hold more, some less. Since some dealers can play with post samples or a class 2 specialty gun, it gets more complicated. I try to build a stage for either a 30 round mag as a guideline or much more on the last string when the shooter knows what he/she has left and can blast away. I admit, I pushed it this match. However, I look at the results here and ask the question...did a higher mag count really make a difference? I know Paul Tapar, who place first and second with a Lage mac, only had standard mags. Joe Carrere, who placed third with a m16/9 colt system only had standard Colt design mags. In fact, if you look at the top ten list for each category, did most have fraken mags? I can't say for sure, but I suspect not. The drum neutral rule helps eliminate large drum advantages.

Again to get back on the question, were the targets too hard, the round count too high or did you like the course? If you have ideas for strings or matches, please lemmeno. Designing a course is a challenge and I accept that nothing pleases everyone. I am changing the tempo of the game by trial and error. The single tap match should be in the past, in my opinion. what are your thoughts?

Paul : -)#

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by jim c 351

...a tractor / trailer that could handle 25 to 30 people, as used at the ATA Grand American trapshoot, is what is needed. It would stop at frequent marked stops...

While that is a good idea, I don't think it would be practical due to the layout of the KCR range. There is no room to get something like that past the main line when people are lined up there to watch the shooting. I'm not sure what the ideal solution is in this instance.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by chili17

The only thing i think i would have done different was limit people to 30 or 32rd mags for the whole course and let them load as needed.

I don't necessarily agree. These are machine guns. They're supposed to shoot a lot of ammo between reloads!

As noted, course design can go a long way toward negating the advantage of a large magazine. Had the last array been split into two arrays with some movement between them, I believe I could have run the whole thing with 32 round mags, reloading between arrays, and not had a different score than if I had shot with big mags.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by Paul Winters

Again to get back on the question, were the targets too hard, the round count too high or did you like the course? If you have ideas for strings or matches, please lemmeno. Designing a course is a challenge and I accept that nothing pleases everyone. I am changing the tempo of the game by trial and error.

In the past few years I have shot matches that cover the extremes in course design in the sport. One year at ISSMC you had all full-auto bursts at arrays of targets. It got to the point that a silencer on an M16/9 failed and broke off due to the abuse. Another year we had several very difficult shots between multiple no-shoot targets, where a burst would be a bad thing. I have shot matches in which the best strategy was to single-tap every single target. I have also been to matches which primarily used pepper poppers and IPSC cardboard targets. In these matches, a quick 2- or 3-round burst on each target was about right.

Steel targets are nice in that they make for short scoring and resetting times. They are also more engaging for the spectators. They can be arranged to require heavy bursts or precision. Of course, for a club just starting out, paper targets are more economical, and they can present their own challenge to the shooter.

Originally Posted by Paul Winters

The single tap match should be in the past, in my opinion.

I've said it before, but I find it ironic that the best gun for a full-auto match is often one that shoots slow enough to run single-shot. I have been to a few matches in which I believe I could have done better using a handgun built for Open Division USPSA/IPSC competition.

I agree that a single-tap match is not what we are after, but scattering single-tap targets in with some heavy targets, or with burst arrays is still a good thing. The KCR match this time probably had the widest variety of target types of any that I've seen. You had the burst arrays (first array), you had the single-shot and paired targets (second array), you had a little bit of precision combined with a required burst (heavy poppers and Z-plates next to no-shoots) and you had the heavy burst-required poppers, as well as a burst-encouraged array of small poppers at the last array.

I think the course design is going in the right direction, and I really appreciate all of the effort that the staff puts into making these matches what they are.

[nayo]

Paul Thanks for a great match I had a great time. I did feel like the poppers on the last string were set a bit on the heavy side I was using frankenmags and 147gr bullets all my rounds where put into the head of the poppers and it took between 3-5 well placed rounds to get them down. I really felt bad for those people that were using 115gr or 124gr bullets and thirty round mags they really had a hard time putting those things down if they managed to get them all down!! I noticed alot of people walking away with targets still standing.
I have to agree with L34a1 I am a frankenmag user but I would hate to see this turn into a equipment race. That may discurage some shooters or new shooters from competing in this wonderful sport of subgunning.

[smkummer]

I agree that the last stage poppers may have been a little on the heavy side but the reason for doing this was to encourage the use of a controlled burst to neutralize a target. Paul has done a great job of listening to all in regards to stage design. Some things to remember that limits us in designing a KCR subgun match are:
1. Almost 200 runs for the 2 days and the daylight time to make this happen.
2. Having a course that can be reset in minimal time.
3. Having a course that can work in either rain or shine.
4. A course challenging to vets but "possible" for newcommers
5. Safety or minimize risks associated with all aspects
6. Fun
7. Realistic
8. A round count that is acceptable to most. Some come a long way and want to shoot!
9. Fast gun/slow gun neutral?

One thing that will never change is no matter how the course is designed, the same shooters will be at the top.

Since subgunning has no national rules or guidelines, "we" are it. All of us determine what rules and courses we want and like.

I may be going out on a limb here but I believe a true subgun course would be designed so that to in order to finish in the top 10 one would "need" to use the full auto feature of the weapon for much of the course. "We" put an artificial rule that the selector has to be on full. There are NO rules in a gun fight. I would like to see a course designed that selector is a shooters choice, knowing that in order to finish top, it would have had to been on full auto for a good amount of the course. If the 45 has the advantage of taking down heavy steel, good, because that shooter is slowed down humping the extra weight.

It appears that "we" are moving in a direction that most shooters want. I see this getting better because of all of us.

[Ulwembu]

Very well put!

[klyph]

This was my first time shooting at KCR (my 2nd FA match). I was totally unprepared as far as mag carriers go, I had no mag pouches. I managed to stuff enough mags in my pants to get thru (with a half a mag left over). I enjoyed the COF, it was a good mix. Changing mags between arrays helps level the field as far as mag capacity goes. I screwed up on the heavy the poppers, but that was my fault, I enjoyed (not while shooting them) the difficulty of knocking the heavy poppers down . But I agree with skunkape, after driving 8 hours I want a large round count. I did find myself wishing there was a better way to transport my gear to the back ranges.

I know now to bring multiple guns, as soon as I was thru with my first run, I wanted to do it again. That, to me, says it was a great match.

[piratesover40]

A little Radio Flyer will handle everything you need except maybe a quad50 or minigun set up.