Questions on Sterlings/Stenlings

[Dave O'Neill]

A friend is ill and asked for help selling his Mk IV SMG. He believes that it was manufactured by Sterling as opposed to being a STEnling. I could use a little information in helping him develop a fair asking price. Any information would be appreciated. I will be seeing it Sunday but until then I'm going on what he told me.

1. Were transferable Sterling made MkIV's imported and sold here?
2. Were Semi Sterling Carbines converted to Full Auto?
3. If either of the above did happen, how do the values of Tube guns, Converted Semi's and factory Sterlings compare.
4. If there were semi to full conversions, how can one be identified.

I understand that the Form 4 should give me the manufacturer which will help with some of the answers.

Dave O'Neill

[P7M13]

Here's a start ...

Originally Posted by Dave O'Neill

A friend is ill and asked for help selling his Mk IV SMG.

1. Were transferable Sterling made MkIV's imported and sold here?
Not seen any (maybe a rumor or two), dealer samples are available but are not transferrable to the average Joe.
2. Were Semi Sterling Carbines converted to Full Auto?
YES! They come up for sale very infrequently. Maybe a couple dozen or so were converted prior to 1986.
3. If either of the above did happen, how do the values of Tube guns, Converted Semi's and factory Sterlings compare.
Some very good tube guns (especially Andrewski builds and a couple of others) are out there and barely distinguishable from the original Sterling Dagenham guns. However, a factory made gun would be rarer and in my opinion, more desireable, and would carry a premium.
4. If there were semi to full conversions, how can one be identified.
In addition to the Form 4 giving some indication (not always an accurate method as ATF accepts pretty much anything someone puts down on the form as manufacturer), a factory gun would still have to be imported and would bear the importer's markings. Typically this was applied by the factory in England on the receiver above the trigger. There were 3 importers of factory guns, Parker Arms, Armscorp of America, and Lanchester USA. Here's an example of a semi-auto MK6 that was converted to a MK4 prior to 1986.

[Ready.Fire.Aim]

David, I sent you a PM.

thanks
Louis

[pillbox]

There was another importer after Lanchester USA in Dallas ceased, and they imported units allready marked at the factory for Lanchester USA. (this was really late in the game)
AW Investments out of penelas park Florida... The double importer marked guns has the AW Investments marking on the front of the magazine housing.
my MK8 is so marked. If you remember I got to communicate with Peter Laidler about my gun. mine was a MK4 smg, pulled from the line before it was totally finished, and remade into an 8.....it didnt start life as one.(none of those CBS markings on mine)

[Dave O'Neill]

Thanks all! Helpful information.

Dave

[Dave O'Neill]

I saw the gun this weekend. Form 4 manufacturer is "Sterling Arms. Co." Type is "machine gun" model has "Mk 6" hand written in. On the gun the area above and in front of the trigger on the left side is covered with crinkle paint (unlike the picture in the post above). The mag well has L2A3 stamped or engraved on it. There is illegible writing under the paint so I can't identify importer. A standard SMG bolt will not go into battery (according to the owner) and the face of the bolt is different - the area that contacts the round as it feeds seems to project more than on an smg bolt. I was not able to disassemble the gun and remove the bolt to look at differences other than through the ejection port.

This seems to be a semi to full conversion as P7M13 mentions above and the identification of the manufacturer on the form 4 bears out his comments.


As it has been transferred at least twice with this information, does anyone foresee issues with ATF given that the person who converted the gun from Mk 6 to Mk 4 is not identified on the form 4?

Anyone have any additional information that they can share?
For example, can a standard SMG bolt be modified to fit or would one need a semi bolt for replacement? When the conversions were made was the front trunion (?) modified to accept a cut off and modified Sterling semi barrel (like some of the sbr's referenced on this board)? I was not sophisticated enough to tell.

Dave

[P7M13]

If it is a converted original MK6, it would have importation marks - this is a BATF requirement. In addition, the serial number on the top of the magazine housing would be one of these:

No XXXXAA = Where the "AA" suffix stands for Armscorp of America
No SAXXXX = Where the "SA" prefix stands for Semi-Automatic

The MK6 came with many different parts to ensure it could not be easily converted to full auto. However, with some work and parts replacements, this could be accomplished. An ideal conversion of a MK6 gun would be for it to accept all sub-gun parts, basically making it into a clone of the MK4. Short of that, it may be made to fire full auto (I personally have not seen one), but is not a complete conversion. I know that there are registered trigger packs out there which presumably could work in a semi gun with some modification to the gun's single shot characteristics.

And finally, MK6 came with a different barrel system where the muzzle end of the gun did NOT contain a permanent mounted bayonet piece, it instead came with an adapter that could be attached to simulate the piece as below. These are some of the signs it is/was a MK6. Of course, the markings could be painted over and the mag well restamped, but it would at least retain the original serial number as that can not be changed.

[P7M13]

Here's what a properly marked factory MK6 mag well looks like ...

[Vegas SMG]

I've seen a couple of converted Mk6s. Basically the conversion consisted of removing the blocking bar from the receiver. A full auto bolt was used along with the cut down Mk6 barrel with it's standard barrel nut retaining system and the trigger pack was replaced with a full auto version.

As far as the Form 4 showing Sterling as the manufacturer, pre-May of 1986, more than a few guns were Form 1 converted and incorrectly list the original manufacturer rather than the person or company who converted it. I've got a friend with a converted Colt SP-1 that lists Colt as the manufacturer. The chances that Colt converted a SP-1 by milling and drilling and AR-15 is extremely doubtful... about the same as Sterling actually converting your Mk6. The actual manufacturer information is incorrect but it happened more often than people think. HTA did a number Mk6 conversions and vibra etched their information on the underside of the magwell. It's very crudely done and very faint through the crackle finish.

As far as value, I personally wouldn't place a premium on a Mk6 conversion over a correct narrow cocking slot build by someone like Andrewski. If the Mk6 conversion was brought up to full SMG specs, then I'd place a higher value on that gun. I've never seen one that was completely in spec so I don't know what the price difference would be. Maybe a thousand bucks at most to the right person.

Semi auto blocking bar shown in the lower portion of the receiver.


Full auto bolt on top, slotted semi auto bolts below.


Full auto bolt on the left, semi auto on the right

[Dave O'Neill]

Thanks all, semi for sure. I believe that MOST of the blocking bar has been removed except a small portion running transversely below the chamber. I think the semi bolt was used. I believe I recognize the angled "corner" seen on the lower right side of the semi bolt.


I assume that the Andrewski Co. would be the go-to organization to take it to full Mk4 specs. I know that Don Quinell did a lot of stenling work too. Are there other options?

[P7M13]

Originally Posted by Vegas SMG

I've never seen one that was completely in spec ...

Mine is, with the exception of the bayo end cap bolts on instead of being silver soldered in place. Uses all standard SMG parts including barrel, bolt, trigger group, etc. I wouldn't sell it for only $1k over the going rate, but that's just me. There's very few of them out there and having a gun made by Sterling in Dagenham and coverted to SMG specs is close to the real thing that is available to us common folk. It's kind of similar to a HK swing down lower vs. a clip on, the HK purist wants the swing down ... I guess I'm just a Sterling snob ... I mean Sterling purist.

Originally Posted by Vegas SMG

As far as the Form 4 showing Sterling as the manufacturer, pre-May of 1986, more than a few guns were Form 1 converted and incorrectly list the original manufacturer rather than the person or company who converted it.

Mine simply states, "Sterling", nothing else. And like your Colt example above, it is highly unlikely that Sterling did a MK6 conversion to SMG here in the States ... just dosn't make sense at all.

[P7M13]

Originally Posted by Dave O'Neill

I assume that the Andrewski Co. would be the go-to organization to take it to full Mk4 specs. I know that Don Quinell did a lot of stenling work too. Are there other options?

I would also look at, and highly recommend, Andy over at KGBarms.com He is kind of a guru on the Sterling and does superior work.

[nfafan]

My Dagenham MK6, S/N SA0022 was from Cassi Arms in CO Springs, CO. This is marked in white lettering on the opposite side of the trigger group from the safety.

[P7M13]

Originally Posted by nfafan

My Dagenham MK6, S/N SA0022 was from Cassi Arms in CO Springs, CO. This is marked in white lettering on the opposite side of the trigger group from the safety.

On the side with the safety, is it also marked STERLING DAGENHAM U.K. similar to the first photo in this thread?

[Vegas SMG]

Originally Posted by P7M13

I would also look at, and highly recommend, Andy over at KGBarms.com He is kind of a guru on the Sterling and does superior work.

Andy loves Sterlings and turns out great work.
He converted my Andrewski Mk4 into this beautiful piece of art.
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27593