1919 education

[Ghost]

I am thinking of buying a FA 1919 as I have always wanted a belt fed but now that I have the funds available I am wondering if a Mcr belt fed upper with a FRT wouldn’t just be the smarter way to go.

I have a m11/9 and a M10 with a lage m15 and wanting to add another Mg and i have no idea how to determine what’s good/bad on these things.

Anyone here have one or able to provide some real world experience?

I have also considered a baby Mac to round things off or a ac556 as well.

Really just wondering on what the smart choice is here.

 

[theduke]

look over on 1919a4.com
lots of info
Beltfeds are addictive..and more.

Buy a gun with all the accessories......They add up fast.

There are some conversions less desireable than others.
This includes converted 37 plates and some others that were not quite square out of the gate.

That said ..if it runs......you can't erase the smile.

They get heavy too move with ammo , tripods...etc.

Something to keep in mind..



I'm leaning towards the Mcr belt fed upper with a FRT.

This is a choice...its not cheap but yet far cheaper than your other thoughts...And Much Lighter

 

[Ghost]

Thanks sir, I’ll check it out.

 

[hkg3k]

As Dan mentions, you'll want to do your 1919a4 research over at - 1919a4.com

FRT / Super Safety with Shirke / MCR upper is certainly orders of magnitude cheaper than a transferable belt-fed...and they work! I run both a RDIAS and SS with my MCR uppers with equal satisfaction. My opinion...the FRTs are going to have a shelf-life, and it's anyone's guess what that could be. There's a bunch of states where they're already banned...that list is going to grow over time and will probably explode when some knuckle-head uses a SS-equipped AR15 to mow down a bunch of kids in a school yard. That said...I'll enjoy them while they're still legal where I live.

Video running MCR with DIAS

If you look at the current selection of transferable belt-feds most are priced in the stratosphere...and go up from there. Transferable 1919a4s are bargain priced in comparison and belt-fed water-cooled guns even more so. The 1919a4 is built like an anvil and IMO would be priced similarly to the more expensive models, but luckily, were made in larger #'s. There's also still a robust parts supply for them as well...though parts are not as cheap as they once were. The 1919a4 is also caliber and configuration flexible...30-06, 8mm, 308, 7.62x54r and 7.62x39 being those calibers one can relatively easily set up their guns in today.

Configuration...you can go with anything from full WW2 GI (tripod mounted & A6 LMG) to any number of other tripod setups and LMG setups. I did a couple of custom F/A LMG setups



Video of one of my F/A LMGs

Which is the best way to go? You'll have plenty of fun with both...I just don't think that FRT/SS fun is here to stay. I think we'll be lucky if they're not banned by the vast majority of states (or Federal Law) in the next 3-4 years.

 

[root]

I agree with getting everything you can with it. (1919)
Accessories and extras run the gambit on prices.
Anywhere from a cut & restored tripod from 400 to original issue 1200 to the sky.
I lost a AA sight on a auction last fall for 250.00 not because I gave up but because I forgot about it and it ended. I was willing to go higher way higher.
There is a whole seperate aspect of collecting the acessories after the belt fed is purchased that can be done from the time you pay for it until you decide you have all you want.
Collecting for the 1919 is like any gun accept the beltfed seem to have a bit more if you choose that rd.

I went with a A6 kit back around 2004 or 5 so I can move the gun and a ammo can in one trip and not have to make seversl trips.
then there is the links Vs. belt debate and what one you want to go with.
I like links and have the stainless steel trunnion protector.
Belts like everything are no longer cheap and most guys that run links have 5 gallon buckets of them.

Then there is safety with the 1919 ( more so with the 1919 since it can kill you during routine maint. if you,don't pay attention)
Read up on the " rod of death" catchy name but no joke.
It can kill you at the worst, maim you at best, if you don't know the disassembly routine.

FRT & SS are def viable options.
While I don't have one in a belt fed AR I do have a OG rarebreed in a AR 30 carbine and a SS in a H&K SP5 and they are a hoot.
Not full auto but still a fun way to turn money into noise.
Only problem with FRT stuff like mentioned lots of states are passing laws. So it seems they are either going to be gone via state sponsored laws or if we can get enough out there, they will have congress amend the NFA and add them like they have other things.
I like them but I just don't see them surviving any real way in the years that come no matter what RB just won in court for reasons already mentioned here.

I vote for the 1919 and collecting all the cool gear and stuff it has to offer.
They are still under 30K for the gun. Someone just had one for sale for 27K
Might even be cheaper for sale out there I don't follow their prices.

Rod of death link.
Warning pix are still in the thread and graphic if that kinda thing bothers you.

https://www.1919a4.com/threads/warning-to-all-my-drive-rod-spring-accident.47762/

 

[theduke]

That rod of death is no joke.

Lots of folks had been briused cut or otherwised scarred.

I remember when this poor guy got it.......The Bolt is a dangerous item .
If you go down the 1919 /1917.....and a few others.
You need too read everything about these.

Other belfeds are different recoil spring thats Captive.

once you know how to deal with it its a non issue.
If you don't research it...It can be a bad day.

 

[A&S Conversions]

My question to the OP is, where and how do you shoot? As posted above, the 1919 is a great gun. But unless you are a very large and strong individual, shooting one off hand like the Shrike/MCR is not realistic. How close can you park to where you actually set up to shoot? Big old belt feds are cool, but unless you got your own bearers, lugging the big heavy gun, gear, and ammo is a real PITA. And the further you need to move it, the greater the PITA.

Personal, I think what you have is a great place to be. It is my understanding that the Mac style family of transferable registered receivers represents almost 20% of all the transferables in the US. As prices go higher, there are so many, and also have a comparatively low market value, I would buy another of each, for less than the market value of that 1919. Then when there is greater innovation, you could dedicate a lower to a more complex conversion.

It used to be that if you wanted a different machine gun mechanism, you’d buy another machine gun. You maxed out uppers for your M16? Then you could buy a HK sear. Now that a DIAS or a HK sear is around the $50,000 mark, that is not so practical for the average collector. I would think that $30 grand could get you a AR conversion RR. There certainly is a lot of options there. Although some options might be hard on a M16 RR.

There has been a fair amount of innovation for the Mac style family, in the last several years. With a market value of $10,000+, a MAC style RR seems like a deal. Compared to other options. Between the market value and the sheer number of transferable Mac style guns, the accessory market is bound to develop for this platform.

Back when HK sears were $600 plus the stamp, would anyone in their right mind pay $12,000 for a clone 21E/23E host gun? Absolutely not. But a couple of companies started producing those belt fed host guns when sears had a market value in the $12,000 range. Now the Sear’s market value is four times that.

The Mac style RR, by its design lends itself to creating an upper receiver using a different mechanism. The guy on AR15 who is making a belt fed upper with a longer throw than a standard upper like the MCR, posted that he owns a Mac style RR. It is my understanding that he is going for the AR market, because there is bigger money there. But I think he said that once production is established with the AR market, he plans to adapt his mechanism to the Mac style RR market.

Of course I am biased. We have an open and closed bolt adapter system for the M10 based on the AR-15/M16 mechanism. The ATF will have had the two examples for a year at the end of the month. There are so many mechanisms that could be adapted to the Mac style lower. Wouldn’t a M10/60-E6 be cool? Especially if you could buy it as an upper for $20,000? Just a thought.

I would think that if you bought two more Mac style RRs, in ten years, they would probably be worth a lot more than that 1919. Maybe not, time will tell. That is the direction that I am going in.

Scott

 

[Slowmo]

There is a relevant thread in the machine gun section of AR15-dot-com asking whether the less mobile beltfeds get boring over time. There are some really interesting responses. Many opinions indicated that it depends a great deal what type of shooting range you have available to you. My takeaway was that a long range where you can setup steel targets at various distances would hold a lot more long-term interest than if you are only able to setup a single paper/cardboard target at 100yds. Full disclosure: I don’t have a beltfed but am in similar shoes to you.

 

[Cortland]

I have a M1917, the water-cooled progenitor of the 1919 (as you likely already know). I also have an M16A1 with a Fightlite upper and an HK sear with a couple HK21 builds I'm still working on.

The M1917 is great, but it's a gun I shoot maybe once or twice a year -- and I have my own range. Obviously the water-cooled aspect adds a fair bit of additional fuss over a 1919. As a collector I'm very happy to have the gun, but it's not something I throw in a soft case and toss in the backseat on the way to my range like I do the M16.

I don't expect you'd regret getting a 1919, but If I were in your shoes I might try to save/scrounge up some extra cash for one of the lower cost M16s (SP1 conversion, Sendra, etc.). That with a Fightlite upper, CMMG .22 upper, AM15 upper, etc. will likely bring significant additional use and enjoyment beyond the 1919.

 

[Ghost]

As Dan mentions, you'll want to do your 1919a4 research over at - 1919a4.com

FRT / Super Safety with Shirke / MCR upper is certainly orders of magnitude cheaper than a transferable belt-fed...and they work! I run both a RDIAS and SS with my MCR uppers with equal satisfaction. My opinion...the FRTs are going to have a shelf-life, and it's anyone's guess what that could be. There's a bunch of states where they're already banned...that list is going to grow over time and will probably explode when some knuckle-head uses a SS-equipped AR15 to mow down a bunch of kids in a school yard. That said...I'll enjoy them while they're still legal where I live.

Video running MCR with DIAS

If you look at the current selection of transferable belt-feds most are priced in the stratosphere...and go up from there. Transferable 1919a4s are bargain priced in comparison and belt-fed water-cooled guns even more so. The 1919a4 is built like an anvil and IMO would be priced similarly to the more expensive models, but luckily, were made in larger #'s. There's also still a robust parts supply for them as well...though parts are not as cheap as they once were. The 1919a4 is also caliber and configuration flexible...30-06, 8mm, 308, 7.62x54r and 7.62x39 being those calibers one can relatively easily set up their guns in today.

Configuration...you can go with anything from full WW2 GI (tripod mounted & A6 LMG) to any number of other tripod setups and LMG setups. I did a couple of custom F/A LMG setups

View attachment 41591

Video of one of my F/A LMGs

Which is the best way to go? You'll have plenty of fun with both...I just don't think that FRT/SS fun is here to stay. I think we'll be lucky if they're not banned by the vast majority of states (or Federal Law) in the next 3-4 years.

Impressive, thanks!

 

[Ghost]

My question to the OP is, where and how do you shoot? As posted above, the 1919 is a great gun. But unless you are a very large and strong individual, shooting one off hand like the Shrike/MCR is not realistic. How close can you park to where you actually set up to shoot? Big old belt feds are cool, but unless you got your own bearers, lugging the big heavy gun, gear, and ammo is a real PITA. And the further you need to move it, the greater the PITA.

Personal, I think what you have is a great place to be. It is my understanding that the Mac style family of transferable registered receivers represents almost 20% of all the transferables in the US. As prices go higher, there are so many, and also have a comparatively low market value, I would buy another of each, for less than the market value of that 1919. Then when there is greater innovation, you could dedicate a lower to a more complex conversion.

It used to be that if you wanted a different machine gun mechanism, you’d buy another machine gun. You maxed out uppers for your M16? Then you could buy a HK sear. Now that a DIAS or a HK sear is around the $50,000 mark, that is not so practical for the average collector. I would think that $30 grand could get you a AR conversion RR. There certainly is a lot of options there. Although some options might be hard on a M16 RR.

There has been a fair amount of innovation for the Mac style family, in the last several years. With a market value of $10,000+, a MAC style RR seems like a deal. Compared to other options. Between the market value and the sheer number of transferable Mac style guns, the accessory market is bound to develop for this platform.

Back when HK sears were $600 plus the stamp, would anyone in their right mind pay $12,000 for a clone 21E/23E host gun? Absolutely not. But a couple of companies started producing those belt fed host guns when sears had a market value in the $12,000 range. Now the Sear’s market value is four times that.

The Mac style RR, by its design lends itself to creating an upper receiver using a different mechanism. The guy on AR15 who is making a belt fed upper with a longer throw than a standard upper like the MCR, posted that he owns a Mac style RR. It is my understanding that he is going for the AR market, because there is bigger money there. But I think he said that once production is established with the AR market, he plans to adapt his mechanism to the Mac style RR market.

Of course I am biased. We have an open and closed bolt adapter system for the M10 based on the AR-15/M16 mechanism. The ATF will have had the two examples for a year at the end of the month. There are so many mechanisms that could be adapted to the Mac style lower. Wouldn’t a M10/60-E6 be cool? Especially if you could buy it as an upper for $20,000? Just a thought.

I would think that if you bought two more Mac style RRs, in ten years, they would probably be worth a lot more than that 1919. Maybe not, time will tell. That is the direction that I am going in.

Scott

Well getting to where I shoot is no issue, I have a large ranch in central Texas and have several places where I will exceed the effective range of the gun.

I committed to one today. dlo build in outstanding condition. Sending payment off shortly.

Tons more to research.

 

[hkg3k]

I committed to one today. dlo build in outstanding condition. Sending payment off shortly.

Congrats. You won't be disappointed! Have fun marveling at the >100 year old genius and functionality of the BMG design. Enjoy!

 

[Ghost]

Congrats. You won't be disappointed! Have fun marveling at the >100 year old genius and functionality of the BMG design. Enjoy!

I think I did ok, 23k with an original belt loader and tripod and a few belts. I would sure love to know what all goes into turning the 1919 into the lmg with the 240 grip….is that what I am seeing?

 

[Ghost]

My question to the OP is, where and how do you shoot? As posted above, the 1919 is a great gun. But unless you are a very large and strong individual, shooting one off hand like the Shrike/MCR is not realistic. How close can you park to where you actually set up to shoot? Big old belt feds are cool, but unless you got your own bearers, lugging the big heavy gun, gear, and ammo is a real PITA. And the further you need to move it, the greater the PITA.

Personal, I think what you have is a great place to be. It is my understanding that the Mac style family of transferable registered receivers represents almost 20% of all the transferables in the US. As prices go higher, there are so many, and also have a comparatively low market value, I would buy another of each, for less than the market value of that 1919. Then when there is greater innovation, you could dedicate a lower to a more complex conversion.

It used to be that if you wanted a different machine gun mechanism, you’d buy another machine gun. You maxed out uppers for your M16? Then you could buy a HK sear. Now that a DIAS or a HK sear is around the $50,000 mark, that is not so practical for the average collector. I would think that $30 grand could get you a AR conversion RR. There certainly is a lot of options there. Although some options might be hard on a M16 RR.

There has been a fair amount of innovation for the Mac style family, in the last several years. With a market value of $10,000+, a MAC style RR seems like a deal. Compared to other options. Between the market value and the sheer number of transferable Mac style guns, the accessory market is bound to develop for this platform.

Back when HK sears were $600 plus the stamp, would anyone in their right mind pay $12,000 for a clone 21E/23E host gun? Absolutely not. But a couple of companies started producing those belt fed host guns when sears had a market value in the $12,000 range. Now the Sear’s market value is four times that.

The Mac style RR, by its design lends itself to creating an upper receiver using a different mechanism. The guy on AR15 who is making a belt fed upper with a longer throw than a standard upper like the MCR, posted that he owns a Mac style RR. It is my understanding that he is going for the AR market, because there is bigger money there. But I think he said that once production is established with the AR market, he plans to adapt his mechanism to the Mac style RR market.

Of course I am biased. We have an open and closed bolt adapter system for the M10 based on the AR-15/M16 mechanism. The ATF will have had the two examples for a year at the end of the month. There are so many mechanisms that could be adapted to the Mac style lower. Wouldn’t a M10/60-E6 be cool? Especially if you could buy it as an upper for $20,000? Just a thought.

I would think that if you bought two more Mac style RRs, in ten years, they would probably be worth a lot more than that 1919. Maybe not, time will tell. That is the direction that I am going in.

Scott

I actually agree with your assessment on the Mac guns but the desire for a belt fed was too long in the making, but I’m by no means done collecting. The baby Mac will be next

 

[hkg3k]

I think I did ok, 23k with an original belt loader and tripod and a few belts. I would sure love to know what all goes into turning the 1919 into the lmg with the 240 grip….is that what I am seeing?

Good looking rig...well done!

WRT my LMG setups...they utilize the trigger group from the TNW M230 kit and M240B buttstock. Here's a link to a thread over on 1919a4.com where I post more pics / videos and a synopsis of the builds - Open Bolt pM240Bmg outing

 

[Ghost]

Good looking rig...well done!

WRT my LMG setups...they utilize the trigger group from the TNW M230 kit and M240B buttstock. Here's a link to a thread over on 1919a4.com where I post more pics / videos and a synopsis of the builds - Open Bolt pM240Bmg outing

Dang this thing is gonna be expensive, now I’ll be looking for a M230 kit.

Very impressive, I love the way it looks and appears to handle. Maybe I’m just not educated but how did you end up with a open bolt 1919.

The adapter piece that was 3d printed, you could make some $$ with a copy of the file

 

[hkg3k]

Dang this thing is gonna be expensive, now I’ll be looking for a M230 kit.

There's one on GB in its ending stage right now...unfortunately, they're going for stupid money - TNW M230 Parts Conversion Kit for 1919A4

Maybe I’m just not educated but how did you end up with a open bolt 1919.

That's easy if you have the parts. Both the Brits and South Africans fielded an open-bolt version for the 1919a4. Here's another thread where I discuss (with pics) the parts needed - pM240Bmg Shorty Video...Thanks again Josh!

The adapter piece that was 3d printed, you could make some $$ with a copy of the file

I have a few of those adapter pieces on hand...my son prints them for me. I've already sold a handful. Find an M230 kit and I can definitely help with getting you set up.

 

[Ghost]

There's one on GB in its ending stage right now...unfortunately, they're going for stupid money - TNW M230 Parts Conversion Kit for 1919A4



That's easy if you have the parts. Both the Brits and South Africans fielded an open-bolt version for the 1919a4. Here's another thread where I discuss (with pics) the parts needed - pM240Bmg Shorty Video...Thanks again Josh!



I have a few of those adapter pieces on hand...my son prints them for me. I've already sold a handful. Find an M230 kit and I can definitely help with getting you set up.

I appreciate all the info.

I’ll be keeping a lookout for one.

 

[theduke]

You did good with a DLO gun......one of the best.

Doug at one time had some of the Open Bolt parts.....

Apex had some but they are all gone.
Rarely seen in the wild but they pop up now and then.

TNW kit on GB or might still be..it ends tonite I think.

Whats your user name on 1919a4.com?

Several of us in this thread are there as well.

Congrats

 

[Ghost]

You did good with a DLO gun......one of the best.

Doug at one time had some of the Open Bolt parts.....

Apex had some but they are all gone.
Rarely seen in the wild but they pop up now and then.

TNW kit on GB or might still be..it ends tonite I think.

Whats your user name on 1919a4.com?

Several of us in this thread are there as well.

Congrats

I don’t have a username yet. Will soon.