.300 whispr blackout debate

[MPA guy]

Shadow, I've looked at some of what little data about the 300 blackout I can find. It would seem that AAC and Remington (both owned by Cerberus) are trying to cash in on the 300 whisper. Probably trying to get their foot in the door hoping for govt contracts in the future.

But can you, or anyone else tell me, what is the difference between the 300 whisper and 300 blackout? Unless I'm missing something very important, it sounds like they're just wanting everyone to change the name/designation to blackout with some very minor changes in detail.

I've recently read that Noveske will be changing the name of their 300 whisper barrels to blackout to follow along with AAC, and that Olympic Arms was contacted asking them to change the name of their whisper barrels to blackout probably to get royalty's or to corner the market.

What's the deal with the whisper/blackout?

Sorry for the hijack, I just want to know.

 

[Shadow]

I have tried to understand the differences and no one will make a definitive statement. There are no complete drawings of either the cartridge or chamber that I can find. There are some strings with the R&D person from AAC participating on another forum and he will only say things to the effect of he can't specifically comment on what the differences are because 300 whisper / 300 fireball / 300 221 being wildcats may or may not have inconsistencies from chamber to chamber. It sounds a lot to me like it is the same but no one wants to admit it. They have not done anything to prevent others from making barrels or ammunition though, like trademarrking it, all they have done is submit it to SAAMI for standardization. I do know the uppers and barrels they are selling are expensive in my opinion but they are the only ones who currently have them, although backordered until December. The reason I have almost decided to use the 300 BLK is that IF there is a difference then I thought possibly the factory ammo made for the BLK may not chamber as well in one of the wildcats as it should in a BLK chamber. I am still not 100% positive I will use the BLK stuff though because for example, you can get a complete AR 300 fireball upper from model 1 sales for about $350 whereas an upper from AAC will run about $1100. There shouldn't be that much of a difference between them to justify the large cost difference. Really all this discovery did for me is confuse an issue I thought I had resolved. I have been wanting a whisper AR and rem 700 for a long time and finally felt I could spare the money and this other calber comes into the picture. Bear in mind what I have written is just my perception of what I have been reading. I am definitely not an expert regarding this stuff.

 

[Nwcid]

Here is a GOOD thread about the Blackout with posts from "the people", http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4361

I have had a "whisper" for just over a year now but probably only about 250 rds though it. Very fun and cool gun for sure.

 

[Shadow]

Nice, I want one. I found another version on the web I didn't mention in the above post, it is called 300 Whisp-R. It is supoose to have a better defined shoulder to head space off of and he does show his dimensions but it has been awhile and I don't remember where it was. So that is five versions altogether.

 

[Nwcid]

From the link I posted all the misc .300's are basically the same thing but they are each wildcats so there is no "spec" on them. There is no "standard" to them so depending on who did the work and who built the parts there can be some variations.

The deal with .300 BLK is that it IS a SAMMI round and has/will have a SET spec for the ammo/reamers/parts. But it is still basically a .300 "whatever name you want to call it"

 

[carcass]

I built my own 300 Whisper/300-221, chambered the barrel and everything. It is ghost quiet with my SRT Shadow can. With the right loads, gas port placement/sizing, and buffer, it is smooth as KY on an M16 platform.

How much interest is there in either chambered barrels or complete uppers here? I have been thinking about offering barrels and/or complete uppers based on my design for sale.

 

[carcass]

The closest you will get to "spec" loads is by trimming with an auto trim die (manuf. linked somewhere on UZI talk), and the Redding .300-221 dies. You have to use thin wall brass--Lake City is best; PMC will not work--the case neck becomes to wide to chamber in 300-221 barrels.

 

[MPA guy]

NWCID, To my knowlege the blackout SAAMI spec is still pending. So that means, there could still be changes made before approval.

Robert did tell me that subsonic should becoming commercially available as early as next month so that gives me something to look forward to.

And nothing personal to him, but this is from the same company who has announced the 30AR at the last two shot shows. [rolleyes]

 

[Nwcid]

MPA I guess I phrased my quote backwards about has/will have. I meant what you said.

 

[Shadow]

carcass
I am interested but I am close to buying now. I want to have something before Christmas. I would like an option to the two possibilities I have found, especially if I could get just the barrel.

MPA guy
Forstner has 300 BLK dies and Midway now carries both go and no-go head space gauges for 300 BLK.

 

[carcass]

carcass
I am interested but I am close to buying now. I want to have something before Christmas. I would like an option to the two possibilities I have found, especially if I could get just the barrel.

MPA guy
Forstner has 300 BLK dies and Midway now carries both go and no-go head space gauges for 300 BLK.

Shadow: are you looking at a short barrel or 16"+?

 

[bwsmg]

Origianlly Posted by Nwcid
If a person plans on mostly shooting .300 XXXX in Supersonic I agree get another .30 caliber rifle.

If a person, like me, only plans on running SS ammo that cant be replaced by cheep ammo of the shelf of any kind that I am aware of. Running suppressed I get the quietness of a suppressed 9mm, but is accurate to 300 yards, carries a punch and the only part that is not a standard AR-15 part is the barrel.

I load for mine so finding ammo is not a problem but it is between $0.50 and $1 per round depending on what bullet you load. One guy I shoot with has a SS load for 150 gr bullets you can get in bulk but is not as reliable as I would like.

Respectfully curious, what kind of accuracy are you getting at 300yds with subsonic ammo?

Do you have any leads I could follow up on?

I have several friends killing themselves trying to achieve past 150yds. I myself gave up a long time ago, but your post has sparked my interest again.

 

[Nwcid]

Not a problem. I help in any way I can.

To be honest I have not shot it much past 100. Like many things I wanted one. Spent $$$$ putting it together. Played around with it a bit and got it 90% finished up then I found something else shiny to play with

I am using Hornady 220 gr RN bullets since they were about 1/2 the price of 240 gr SMK's. I had Lilja build me a barrel $$$ so it should shoot good. I know I can hit a 4" plate at 100 yards standing (I am weak at this) or keep 3 rounds touching from prone.

Sorry I am not much help on this one. I am hoping to play with it more sometime, but winter is here so it will be spring before I do.

 

[BWE Firearms]

You can get MOA accuracy out past 500 yards. The drop is huge, most subsonic cartridges drop about 23 feet at 500 yards. I will be getting a 300 Blackout reamer shortly. I have decided to get the blackout reamer instead of the Whisper reamer because there will be factory loaded ammo available for it so a lot more people will be interested in it. If anyone wants a something built drop me a line.

 

[r]

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28496

i'm going with one of these--have to dies-making the brass--buying a pacific tool reamer and rebarreling a 308 sps tactical

 

[rsilvers]

30-221 can do the same thing as 300 AAC BLACKOUT, but there was no standard. 300 AAC BLACKOUT was submitted to SAAMI as a standard. Like 5.56mm compared to 223, the throat in 300 AAC BLACKOUT is longer than the wildcat reamers. For this reason, you can generally have a gunsmith re-ream an existing 30-221 chamber to be safe to shoot with 300 AAC BLACKOUT ammo.

The drawings for 300 AAC BLACKOUT are out, just not public. Every SAAMI member has a copy, and a bunch of companies are making rifles for it. No one collects royalties on 300 AAC BLACKOUT and anyone is free to make products for it.

PTG sells reamers for it. MidwayUSA has several products and will be adding more products as they are available.

 

[rsilvers]

Part of the plan to help this make sense for people, aside from the features it offers, is good pricing and the ability to hunt in states which do not allow 223 for medium game.

The closest price comparison for the $12.99 300 BLK supersonic ammo is to brass-cased 7.62x39mm:

Imported:
Sellier & Bellot Ammunition 7.62x39mm Russian 123 Grain Full Metal Jacket Box of 20 - MidwayUSA $11.59
Prvi Partizan Ammunition 7.62x39mm Russian 123 Grain Full Metal Jacket Box of 20 - MidwayUSA $13.79

USA:
Remington UMC Ammunition 7.62x39mm Russian 123 Grain Full Metal Jacket Box of 20 - MidwayUSA $15.29
Federal American Eagle Ammunition 7.62x39mm Russian 124 Grain Full Metal Jacket Box of 20 - MidwayUSA $15.99
Winchester USA Ammunition 7.62x39mm Russian 123 Grain Full Metal Jacket Box of 20 - MidwayUSA $17.29

So $16.19 average for USA, which is 25% more expensive than 300 AAC BLACKOUT based on MidwayUSA prices, or 41% more if you use the $11.50 pricing that one dealer is offering for 300 BLK.

Lots more info here:

SilencerTalk • View forum - 300 AAC BLACKOUT

 

[chili17]

thanks Robert!

 

[MarkV]

Part of the plan to help this make sense for people

seems more like a hard sell tactic to me... hopefully you contacted the board owners before pushing the wares so hard?

 

[MPA guy]

I think the blackout is going to be a hard sell for a lot of people.

I notice that you have a ton of 7.62x39 ammo listed, but no links to the blackout ammo yet. That is a bit of a concern since MSRP and what they're selling for retail is often worlds apart.

I personally like the ability to shoot subsonic or supersonic rifle calibers out of an AR platform especially if the sub cycles properly. That's ordinarily just not very feasible except with pistol calibers, but I don't really understand why in the "promotional videos and specs" they're compared so much to the MP5 (*which as we all know 9mm is oranges to a rifle calibers) and seems like an unfair comparison in some respects.

The 300 whisper/fireball has been around for a long time and I do appreciate Remington finally making commercial ammo, although there have been enough changes to the original specs that Remington can call it "theirs", but I am going to reserve judgement until I see a lot of ammo on the shelf soon.

I am going to be building either a 6.8 or Blackout upper in the next 2 months for hunting medium game. Ammo and parts availability when I'm ready to buy will determine which I will get.

Do you expect that there will be barrels and bolts and sub./supersonic ammo available in any meaningful quantities by the end of February because I am yet to see any available by the end of the year like you estimated a few months ago?

I can get 6.8 SPCII bolts/barrels and sub/supersonic ammo for the 6.8 right now as I type this and I am leaning toward it at the moment because of availability.