Another “funny” one on GB

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Time for another round of “what’s wrong with this picture”…

Im sure keystone will still somehow manage to get 3x top retail for it regardless.

Total FAKE. Doesn’t even have manufacturers markings, was built (poorly) using a 3 piece weld kit vs a folded flat, with early 90s Cobray replacement parts.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1162116194

Crazy that such a large well known gunbroker FFL dealer would list something like this, but not surprising anymore with the amount of fakes I’ve seen pop up on GB over the years from “reputable” sellers.

 

[Hey]

It’s definately garbage (as described, it may be a decent pistol). I let him know the obvious facts he might not be aware of.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

It’s definately garbage (as described, it may be a decent pistol). I let him know the obvious facts he might not be aware of, up to him to pull or rephrase the auction. We’ll see

I’m sure it works fine. Has machined SWD parts that are usually more reliable than the older cast RPB components but it certainly isn’t what the listing says it is.

It’s not that it’s a poorly built gun.. whoever did it did a decently clean job for a 3 piece weld kit. I’ve seen some that are an absolutely mess.. but it’s a poorly built fake.

if they were trying to make a convincing phony RPB (hence the SAP SN) they did a terrible job. It’s not a badly built homemade M11, I’ve seen much worse, but it isnt even remotely similar to an actual RPB pistol. The finish is like a high gloss automotive paint. It reminds me of those Brazilian workshop made guns that have American manufacture names on them… as if anyone anyone with a trained eye would ever believe it’s real (though this is a bit nicer than those)

The sear carriage appears to be held in place using roll pins….. I assume it’s probably not welded in at all.

 

[Deerhurst]

Finish doesn't mean it's fake, just means it's been painted. In the AK world we use BBQ paint. It's obvious it's not Russian paint but it's easy to get and works well. I've seen many a Saiga that got beat up be repainted with BBQ paint. Same goes for Rony, Yugo, etc.

Complaining about the paint not matching on a likely kit build gun is like complaining the paint isn't original because I used Kg kote on my VZ58 build using an AWO receiver.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Finish doesn't mean it's fake, just means it's been painted. In the AK world we use BBQ paint. It's obvious it's not Russian paint but it's easy to get and works well. I've seen many a Saiga that got beat up be repainted with BBQ paint. Same goes for Rony, Yugo, etc.

Complaining about the paint not matching on a likely kit build gun is like complaining the paint isn't original because I used Kg kote on my VZ58 build using an AWO receiver.

If you think that this is only about the finish, then you obviously have no idea at all what you are looking at and you’re the exact type of person that this seller hopes will bid on their fake gun!

The finish is the icing on the cake, not even remotely the tell tale sign that it’s absolute complete slapped together weld kit bullshit.

Are they advertising this as a kit built gun? I thought they were advertising it as a genuine early RPB industries Serial number 61 pistol? Maybe I missed something

Looks to me like the person who built this “kit built gun” was hoping to deceive when they marked it with an SAPxxxx serial number… (and then proceeded to assemble it without one single actual RPB part on the entire gun)

If this was being sold as a “kit built gun” we wouldn’t even be here right now, let alone discussing the finish on it… i see rattle can spray painted RPB pistols on GB posted nearly once a week, I don’t run to Uzitalk to claim that they’re fake. This gun is absolute bullshit in every way conceivable. If you’d like me to list all the other reasons off the top of my head…

Early 90s Cobray “M12” pattern replacement machined SMG bolt
SWD “Cobray” marked upper with 1” lug M12 pattern barrel
Semi auto M11/9 or M12 trigger pin
Obvious weld kit frame (should be a folded flat) with sharp 90 degree edges and visible seams where the side plates meet the center section and were not fully welded.
Sear carriage roll pinned in place 🤨
SWD era takedown pin
No manufacturer marking whatsoever
No Cobray logo whatsoever
Extremely low RPB SN that doesn’t even remotely jive with the rest of the gun at all…
Welds appear to be done with a flux core wire welder or something similar like a stick welder..
And of course the horrible gloss black enamel spray painted finish, which is far from the only indicator that the gun is bogus, but certainly isn’t doing it any favors in the legitimacy department..


Also looks as though the seller hasn’t pulled the listing but judging by the current price of the auction,, people aren’t falling for it.. but the final hour will be the moment of truth as to whether or not they get big bucks for their unregistered post sample semi auto machine gun.

 

[Deerhurst]

If you think that this is only about the finish, then you obviously have no idea at all what you are looking at and you’re the exact type of person that this seller hopes will bid on their fake gun!

The finish is the icing on the cake, not even remotely the tell tale sign that it’s absolute complete slapped together weld kit bullshit.

Are they advertising this as a kit built gun? I thought they were advertising it as a genuine early RPB industries Serial number 61 pistol? Maybe I missed something

Looks to me like the person who built this “kit built gun” was hoping to deceive when they marked it with an SAPxxxx serial number… (and then proceeded to assemble it without one single actual RPB part on the entire gun)

If this was being sold as a “kit built gun” we wouldn’t even be here right now, let alone discussing the finish on it… i see rattle can spray painted RPB pistols on GB posted nearly once a week, I don’t run to Uzitalk to claim that they’re fake. This gun is absolute bullshit in every way conceivable. If you’d like me to list all the other reasons off the top of my head…

Early 90s Cobray “M12” pattern replacement machined SMG bolt
SWD “Cobray” marked upper with 1” lug M12 pattern barrel
Semi auto M11/9 or M12 trigger pin
Obvious weld kit frame (should be a folded flat) with sharp 90 degree edges and visible seams where the side plates meet the center section and were not fully welded.
Sear carriage roll pinned in place 🤨
SWD era takedown pin
No manufacturer marking whatsoever
No Cobray logo whatsoever
Extremely low RPB SN that doesn’t even remotely jive with the rest of the gun at all…
Welds appear to be done with a flux core wire welder or something similar like a stick welder..
And of course the horrible gloss black enamel spray painted finish, which is far from the only indicator that the gun is bogus, but certainly isn’t doing it any favors in the legitimacy department..


Also looks as though the seller hasn’t pulled the listing but judging by the current price of the auction,, people aren’t falling for it.. but the final hour will be the moment of truth as to whether or not they get big bucks for their unregistered post sample semi auto machine gun.

Nice "subtle" jab you got in there right away.

By the way you make such a big deal about the finish one would think it is what determines the value. Thats why I even bothered to comment in the first place. Listing is inaccurate but thats as far as I bother to pretend to care.

I am by far the intended buyer. to me a SAP is worth $100 and a transferable is worth $200. They are cheaply built sheet metal guns after all. I have an interest in open bolt semis, just not anything mac based. To me a mac SAP is very boring.


Ill just go back to designing and building guns I guess rather than worrying about a gunjoker advert about a kit without a stamp. Meh, I simply dont care. The general majority of gun owners and buyers simply dont care. The ones that do are mac nerds, such as yourself. Im a UK-59/MG42/PM-63/etc nerd. If you want to discuss generational variances of PM-63 stock latches and rate reducers, Im your guy.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Nice "subtle" jab you got in there right away.

By the way you make such a big deal about the finish one would think it is what determines the value. Thats why I even bothered to comment in the first place. Listing is inaccurate but thats as far as I bother to pretend to care.

I am by far the intended buyer. to me a SAP is worth $100 and a transferable is worth $200. They are cheaply built sheet metal guns after all. I have an interest in open bolt semis, just not anything mac based. To me a mac SAP is very boring.


Ill just go back to designing and building guns I guess rather than worrying about a gunjoker advert about a kit without a stamp. Meh, I simply dont care. The general majority of gun owners and buyers simply dont care. The ones that do are mac nerds, such as yourself. Im a UK-59/MG42/PM-63/etc nerd. If you want to discuss generational variances of PM-63 stock latches and rate reducers, Im your guy.

Then with all due respect, why are you even reading and replying to this thread in the first place? Or even on this forum at all? (Chiming in on nearly every single thread no less) Since it’s literally a MAC specific forum where us “mac nerds” talk about nothing but MACs.

You won’t see me going on the MG42, PM-63 etc boards and trashing the platform, insulting their value and calling the posters “PM63 nerds”.. for one because I truly don’t give a shit about those guns, and couldn’t care less what people pay for them etc.. and 2 because it’s just in bad taste in general to do so.. I tend to only frequent and post on boards pertaining to guns I actually like… great concept right?

I really don’t think I even put that much emphasis on the finish in the first place?? I didn’t even mention it all in my original post… I mentioned it in the replies, yes.. kinda like an icing on the cake thing.. but certainly not as the tell tale sign it’s bullshit and it wasn’t even mentioned initially at all. I mean if they were trying to make a counterfeit clone to pass off as a real one for a few grand, and going as far as serializing it to match an original, it would help not to use the worst looking glossiest thickest automotive enamel they could find to finish it… and only on the lower no less.

While it’s certainly not the tell-tale sign of a fake, it sure as hell raises some red flags on a collectible firearm and gets people looking a little closer at it with a bit more scrutiny, especially those who aren’t as well versed in these guns that may not notice the more nuanced details like the bolt and the janky weld kit frame, and complete lack of any markings at all besides a SN…. 😑

I make most of my living on gunjoker (selling predominantly MAC parts and accessories), it’s in my best interest to pay attention to the ads and the market in general. If this post saves even ONE person from getting fucked out of their hard earned money for a totally fake falsely advertised homemade (and totally illegal) gun, then that’s good enough for me.. and if it doesn’t, oh well… I can’t say I didn’t try.

They might be worth $100-$200 to you (I get that much on GB for an original RPB cocking knob alone…) but to rest of the world they are currently worth $2-3000 (sometimes more) so while I wish i could use your “deerhurst blue book” appraisal when making offers on firearms, unfortunately you are a little out of touch with the current market it seems, or simply in denial of it .

As for the comment about “an item without a stamp”… well… no comment.. but theres a reason these open bolt semi autos are so appealing to some, and let’s just leave it at that.

 

[BlackBelt]

I was thinking whoever built that gun built it for their own use/enjoyment. Surely the hours spent getting everything just right, the time spent welding and cleaning up the receiver welds, as well as sourcing the parts and the more involved assembly of a SAP, as well as stamping the receiver and other things related...all that would take quite a bit of time in a home workshop.
I believe very few folks would do all that work trying to just make a profit from this sale.
Probably just a guy with some love for the Mac line and he enjoyed the process. I cant fault him for that. But he shouldn't try to pass it off as an original.

 

[trilogymac]

I have seen a number of sketchy home made Macs over the years. Every time I see one, my first reaction is raised eyebrows. Then, I wonder, if it were home built before 1982, would it be legit? I never had enough interest in the SAP guns to research when kits were available, ATF rulings on Macs other than RPB built pre 82 guns etc..
I have had an OB Mac of some sort (mostly MG's) since 1984, except for the last 8 months. I just couldn't warm up to the 45. Withdrawals kicked in and I was fortunate enough to fine TWO rare MACs, one in 380 and one in 9mm. Now all is right in my world again. The devil is in the details for Mac nerds.

 

[Deerhurst]

Then with all due respect, why are you even reading and replying to this thread in the first place? Or even on this forum at all? (Chiming in on nearly every single thread no less) Since it’s literally a MAC specific forum where us “mac nerds” talk about nothing but MACs.

You won’t see me going on the MG42, PM-63 etc boards and trashing the platform, insulting their value and calling the posters “PM63 nerds”.. for one because I truly don’t give a shit about those guns, and couldn’t care less what people pay for them etc.. and 2 because it’s just in bad taste in general to do so.. I tend to only frequent and post on boards pertaining to guns I actually like… great concept right?

I really don’t think I even put that much emphasis on the finish in the first place?? I didn’t even mention it all in my original post… I mentioned it in the replies, yes.. kinda like an icing on the cake thing.. but certainly not as the tell tale sign it’s bullshit and it wasn’t even mentioned initially at all. I mean if they were trying to make a counterfeit clone to pass off as a real one for a few grand, and going as far as serializing it to match an original, it would help not to use the worst looking glossiest thickest automotive enamel they could find to finish it… and only on the lower no less.

While it’s certainly not the tell-tale sign of a fake, it sure as hell raises some red flags on a collectible firearm and gets people looking a little closer at it with a bit more scrutiny, especially those who aren’t as well versed in these guns that may not notice the more nuanced details like the bolt and the janky weld kit frame, and complete lack of any markings at all besides a SN…. 😑

I make most of my living on gunjoker (selling predominantly MAC parts and accessories), it’s in my best interest to pay attention to the ads and the market in general. If this post saves even ONE person from getting fucked out of their hard earned money for a totally fake falsely advertised homemade (and totally illegal) gun, then that’s good enough for me.. and if it doesn’t, oh well… I can’t say I didn’t try.

They might be worth $100-$200 to you (I get that much on GB for an original RPB cocking knob alone…) but to rest of the world they are currently worth $2-3000 (sometimes more) so while I wish i could use your “deerhurst blue book” appraisal when making offers on firearms, unfortunately you are a little out of touch with the current market it seems, or simply in denial of it .

As for the comment about “an item without a stamp”… well… no comment.. but theres a reason these open bolt semi autos are so appealing to some, and let’s just leave it at that.

Blocked. I don't have time for your bullshit.

 

[Hey]

Also looks as though the seller hasn’t pulled the listing but judging by the current price of the auction,, people aren’t falling for it.. but the final hour will be the moment of truth as to whether or not they get big bucks for their unregistered post sample semi auto machine gun.

I contacted them about it obviously being fake, their response:

“Thanks, we will take that into consideration. Have a great day.

Thank you,
Jocelyn
724-667-4187
Jocelyn@keystonearmsffl.com”


Apparently they don't care and will gladly sell to the highest (sucker)bidder.

Caveat emptor!

 

[Hey]

Kinda pissed they are knowingly selling BS.

Emailed this back after ample time:

“I think the atf needs to get involved. You are selling a known fake and won’t take it down. This is criminal.”

It may be a bluff, maybe not… but it’s been a long time we’ve all talked about their auctions.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Blocked. I don't have time for your bullshit.

Cool

I have seen a number of sketchy home made Macs over the years. Every time I see one, my first reaction is raised eyebrows. Then, I wonder, if it were home built before 1982, would it be legit? I never had enough interest in the SAP guns to research when kits were available, ATF rulings on Macs other than RPB built pre 82 guns etc..I have had an OB Mac of some sort (mostly MG's) since 1984, except for the last 8 months. I just couldn't warm up to the 45. Withdrawals kicked in and I was fortunate enough to fine TWO rare MACs, one in 380 and one in 9mm. Now all is right in my world again. The devil is in the details for Mac nerds.

So there’s usually a few ways you can roughly date the fake open bolt semi guns. One of the best and most positive ones is the logo on the flat. If it has the “Cobray” logo with the circle around it (which most of the fakes do) then it is 100% guaranteed to be made after 1982, because it’s an SWD manufactured flat and SWD didn’t even exist until 1983… and wasn’t selling those flats until 84/85, the entire existence of SWD is the result of open bolt semi autos being banned. So if it has an SWD logo, it’s fake, plain and simple no question about it.

The vast majority of the fake open bolt semis I’ve seen have that SWD “Cobray” marked flat which didn’t even exist during the RPB era. All the other components could be swapped out etc, but the frame is the frame, and if the frame is from post 83, then that’s pretty telling. In the case of this gun, the frame isn’t even a flat at all… so it’s clearly not a factory gun. The only factory MACs that were ever built on 3 piece weld kits that I know of are a few SWD closed bolt M10 .45s they sold as stripped frames only in the late 80s and the early masterpiece arms guns of the late 90s. All other production MAC firearms are built on folded frame flats.

Kinda pissed they are knowingly selling BS.

Emailed this back after ample time:

“I think the atf needs to get involved. You are selling a known fake and won’t take it down. This is criminal.”

It may be a bluff, maybe not… but it’s been a long time we’ve all talked about their auctions.

That seller sucks, I have never taken their listings seriously. lots of very obvious shill bidding, every single thing they list magically sells for 10x the top retail price, most inflated prices on GB (and that’s coming from me…) i think I read once (maybe on this board) that GB account is some kind of money laundering operation..

I find it very hard to believe that a legitimate FFL dealer that sells MAC machine guns fairly often would ever actually believe that gun with absolutely no markings on it besides a serial number is legit. They know it’s fake (they definitely do now after your message) they just don’t care. I think they’re a GB top 10 seller.. one of the “untouchables”..

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

I was thinking whoever built that gun built it for their own use/enjoyment. Surely the hours spent getting everything just right, the time spent welding and cleaning up the receiver welds, as well as sourcing the parts and the more involved assembly of a SAP, as well as stamping the receiver and other things related...all that would take quite a bit of time in a home workshop.
I believe very few folks would do all that work trying to just make a profit from this sale.
Probably just a guy with some love for the Mac line and he enjoyed the process. I cant fault him for that. But he shouldn't try to pass it off as an original.

Man you would be surprised… fake MAC guns and fake MAC parts have become an epidemic on gunbroker since the value of the stuff has skyrocketed.. (I call it FAUXBRAY) I know of at least one fairly large GB seller who deliberately welds up fake MAC frame kits and applies fake manufacturer markings in his workshop and then cuts them up and sells them as “demilled parts kits” on GB.. as well as selling frame weld kits with sideplates that have bogus manufacturer markings engraved on them etc. if you frequent GB and look at MAC stuff you have 100% seen his listings over the last few years and may not have even known the stuff was fake.

There is actually a post on this forum about a jersey arms/hatton marked frame weld kit he had listed and a member here was convinced it was legit. (Jersey arms never made or sold 3 piece frame weld kits with roll marked serialized sideplates)

In the case of this particular gun, you may be right.. but what makes me question this is the fact that it’s an open bolt semi auto.. and has a bogus RPB serial number. Building an open bolt semi auto is the same thing as building an illegal unregistered machine gun, so why bother making it semi auto?? If you’re gonna build an illegal open bolt machine gun, wouldn’t you just do it right and make it a full auto machine gun? Why go through the trouble of sourcing a sear carriage etc? The real red flag to me is that serial number… why put an RPB SAP serial number on the gun if you are just building it for your own personal use? Maybe so he could try to claim it was a legit gun and not his own illegal home build? Regardless… it seems pretty suspicious to me, especially considering it has now ended up for sale being advertised as the genuine article, regardless of the original intentions. With RPB open bolt semi autos selling for upwards of 3k plus… and the ability to assemble a knock off for less than $800 relatively easily… the temptation becomes fairly strong for scammers to start making bootlegs. You should see some of the fake open bolt RPBs out there, some of them are much much better than this one and had way more time put into them… this is nothing new.. anything to make a buck.

A gun like that one can be made up in a home work shop in just a couple of hours, MACs are incredibly easy to build, especially from those 3 piece weld kits with the interlocking tabs. anyone who is decent with a 100 dollar harbor freight welder could build that gun with relative ease.

 

[woodenword]

6 bids with 5 bidders and 8 days left. Wonder how many are real and how high it will go?

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

6 bids with 5 bidders and 8 days left. Wonder how many are real and how high it will go?

I communicated with the seller after reading HEYs comments that they are seemingly not removing the auction. I messaged and politely explained some of the issues with the gun, they replied and said that they are waiting for gun broker to pull the listing.

On gun broker, sellers cannot end an item early if it has bids. You have to reach out to customer support and have them kill the listing. The only way you can end an item early is if you have no bids, or you have a reserve and it’s not yet met.

But it does at least sound like they are trying to end the listing, I have not checked the listing again, don’t know if they updated the description to inform bidders that they’re closing the auction, but they seemingly have initiated the process with GB.

 

[Jtm35a2]

I told them to edit the auction, which is permissible. Delete the pics and chop it up with a torch. Or, if they bought it from someone, get law enforcement involved.

 

[slimshady]

You never get law enforcement involved if you can help it. The previous owner was likely just as clueless as the current one.

Guy buys a used car, so he's cleaning it out and pulls the rear seat. and finds a small baggie full of what appears to be drugs. Being a law abiding citizen he calls the police and explains the situation, assuming they will come and take the baggie and then start asking questions of the person he bought it from.

Nope that would require actual work, someone just called and turned themselves in for being in possession of illegal drugs. When the field test comes back positive just Fill out the paperwork, get another felony arrest on your tally sheet, and go back to writing tickets.

Back in the day a bunch of Chinese akms made it into the US that weren't quite like the rest. Someone took a full auto akm, removed the naughty bits, and stuck a big rivet through the auto sear hole in the receiver. That pesky little once a machine gun receiver always a machine gun receiver applies so anybody that bought one was in possession of an unregistered machine gun.

There was a recall and everybody tried to get them back but you still see one show up every few years or so whenever someone posts a picture of their latest acquisition and they get the bad news. They get the exact same advice you gave the GunBroker seller, minus calling law enforcement.

 

[Hey]

This is a vendor that knew EXACTLY what he was selling from the start.

Shady as hell and he knew it. Not an honest mistake.

Finally after countless people stating the facts they made this note to stop bidding.

 

[Jtm35a2]

^ this!
They were notified of the problem and failed to act until threatened. Imagine being the poor sap that bought it and went to prison. That seller deserves no quarter!