Anyone ever seen an MP5 registered this way?

[GunMD]

It’s an MP5 with a shelf converted with a sear. The gun has two Form 4 registrations:

1. “Machine gun” made by Hard Times Armory

2. “Machine gun sear” made by S&H, and in 3h it says it’s installed in the gun above, mentioning not HTA’s serial number but instead the gun’s original HK serial number.

If #1 was registered as an SBR, the world would make sense to me. Or if there was no form 4 at all for the gun, I’d understand what was going on. Instead, it looks like those are two separate machine guns from the ATF’s perspective.

 

[slimshady]

You have 2 separate forms, each with the tax paid? Never heard of that before. But, it does sounds like you have an improperly registered RR MG and a sear.

 

[charlie0369]

So if you get clarification and there are two actual form 4's, you may luck out and have a sear machine gun and a receiver gun(?). I'm not familiar with "shelf" converted...is that a trigger pack or the actual receiver itself? Either way the sear would be the most valuable and the "shelf" if a trigger pack, then a RR. Interesting. Will ask some NFA gun groups.

 

[sardo_67]

Are you selling it?

Don’t ask questions, just check the form 4s and SN on each form.

Form 4 saying MG with receiver SN?...... it’s a tranny registered receiver.

Form4 saying MG with sear/pack SN?..... tranny sear/pack.

 

[GunMD]

I’m buying it. There are definitely two separate form fours: one for the gun and one for the sear. Taxes have been paid on both.

The receiver is a shelf gun (i.e. it’s not a swing down).

What is a “tranny” receiver?

 

[A&S Conversions]

Does the sear have a serial number on it? It is my understanding that because of some problems with changing information on the forms, the NFA Branch is checking previous forms compared to the form submitted. This sounds like a nightmare transfer and could get this transferable thrown out of the registry.

Personally, I would never buy a RR with an unaltered semi automatic receiver and a unregistered sear. Which begs the question, was someone trying to alter the paperwork to make an unregistered HTA sear into a transferable? Or back in the day when registered sears were cheap, did some "repair" a HTA machine gun with a transferable sear because the unregistered sear or pack with the unregistered sear would lost or destroyed?

The HTA gun was registered as a RR. If a transferable sear was "married" to the receiver, this might be a loophole to have the semiautomatic shelf removed and the front push pin installed. My understanding is that the FATD ruled that manufacturers and private individuals could not destroy the unregistered sear and install a push pin as drilling the hole makes the receiver a machinegun, but the unregistered sear has been ruled to be a machinegun. So that would be two items that are ruled to be a machinegun with only one registration. Because the registration states that the receiver is the registered part, as a collection of parts, if the unregistered sear is destroyed first, then the receiver being a semiautomatic, there is no functional machinegun. So in modifying a semiautomatic receiver with an unregistered sear, there would either be two machines or no machineguns according to the FATD. Of course the FATD might consider a registered sear "married" to the receiver to make the receiver an unregistered SBR because there is not enough room to use two auto sears.

To me this is a nightmare. If there is a registered sear market value is around 30,000 with some HK parts. At best, the HTA receiver gets modified, divorce the sear and have two HK machineguns. It all sounds like lawyers and problems.

Scott

ETA "Tranny" is the cool kids way of saying transferable.

 

[A&S Conversions]

How much are you spending? To me it is worth the market value of a sear. If the registered sear is "married" to HTA receiver then is that receiver still considered a machinegun? Like I said, you might get lucky and be able to get the Hard Times Armory receiver "repaired" to a push pin. Then divorce the sear from the receiver. All that would need documentation. The first thing I would do is contact a very good NFA attorney and find out the best way to go.

Scott

 

[GunMD]

The price is $25k and the sear is indeed serial numbered.

Thanks for all the help. It’s appreciated. HK’s are confusing as far as the NFA implementation and I say this after having read “The Mechanics of the Heckler & Koch NFA Conversions” by Thomas T. Hoel.

It sounds like I need to find a good NFA attorney who is familiar with HKs. Any recommendations?

 

[sardo_67]

Sorry, tranny is short for “transferable” machine gun. The MGs that cost $$$$$


And if you’re paying 25k I really hate you hahahahaha. That’s like half price

 

[pjm204]

I know Joshua Prince is a lawyer in PA that deals with NFA stuff. Might give him a ring. From my perspective, if you have two Form 4's and two different items with two different serial numbers, you have two transferable machine guns. Otherwise why would there need to be tax paid twice if it were only considered one machine gun? If you don't want it, I'll take it

 

[Mackjack]

Sounds like 2 mgs to me

 

[GunMD]

Joshua Prince... here I come! Thanks, guys. I’d be psyched if it’s two; but I really want to make sure it’s at least one!

 

[charlie0369]

Even at one and a sear at that for $25k. U scored a smoking deal. Lmk if it gets to much for you. I’ll
take over.

 

[slimshady]

So if you get clarification and there are two actual form 4's, you may luck out and have a sear machine gun and a receiver gun(?). I'm not familiar with "shelf" converted...is that a trigger pack or the actual receiver itself? Either way the sear would be the most valuable and the "shelf" if a trigger pack, then a RR. Interesting. Will ask some NFA gun groups.

Back in the day ATF wasn't too picky when it came to conversions, some folks created a FA pack that would fit over the semi auto mounting shelf and instead of registering the pack or the sear within it as they would have to do today, they registered the receiver even though it was still in semi auto configuration. Problematic as you have essentially an unregistered MG pack that can be swapped to any other HK, and a registered MG receiver that can only accept the modified pack/sear that is considered an MG all by itself.

 

[hkg3k]

From my perspective, if you have two Form 4's and two different items with two different serial numbers, you have two transferable machine guns. If you don't want it, I'll take it

Sounds like 2 mgs to me

AGREED. (2) Different serial #'s on (2) separate Form 4's = (2) machine guns. That's exactly how I would proceed without an attorney despite the over complicated, disjointed, nonsensical mental masturbation above. Take your "2 for 1," be happy and shut up would be my advice.

My guess on this situation is either the original HD Armory conversion sear broke / lost -or- a previous owner got spooked b/c of the gun's a clip-on RR build status and bought a registered sear to "right a wrong." Back in the day, you had folks like one of the posters in this thread carping how RR clip-on guns were illegitimate and subject to confiscation at any time. Chicken little has been waiting for the sky to fall on that issue for going on 15 years now.

 

[pjm204]

AGREED. (2) Different serial #'s on (2) separate Form 4's = (2) machine guns. That's exactly how I would proceed without an attorney despite the over complicated, disjointed, nonsensical mental masturbation above. Take your "2 for 1," be happy and shut up would be my advice.

My guess on this situation is either the original HD Armory conversion sear broke / lost -or- a previous owner got spooked b/c of the gun's a clip-on RR build status and bought a registered sear to "right a wrong." Back in the day, you had folks like one of the posters in this thread carping how RR clip-on guns were illegitimate and subject to confiscation at any time. Chicken little has been waiting for the sky to fall on that issue for going on 15 years now.

The only issue I see is that the sear form references the gun that it's in. However since it references the original HK serial number, maybe that's a non issue. Either way, I think I should probably have it

 

[hkg3k]

The only issue I see is that the sear form references the gun that it's in.

I don't see that as an issue at all. Information in box 4H is anecdotal in nature only and irrelevant as it pertains to the status of the registered part. 4H information is subject to change / removal at any time.

As an example...I have a 1919a4 where the Form 4 has "Drop in Auto Sear" in box 4H. It was an error my C3 made at the time he was completing (2) Form 4's for me...yes, the other form was for a RDIAS. Anyway...the BATF in no way shape or form acknowledged "Drop In Auto Sear" on that Form 4 was in error or otherwise. I'll just remove that blurb in 4H if / when I ever transfer that 1919a4.

 

[KickStand]

If possible, I would see if the seller could file a FOIA request. That should shed some light on the original form 4’s.

The registry is full of errors. I’ve heard some of Amnesty registered bring backs were registered with just a part of the serial number A 1234 and leave out the A. Hell my friend had an approved form 4 that he forgot to sign back in the 1980’s.

I can tell you an attorney is not going to be cheap. If you go that route I would try to bring the FOIA requests in and buy an hour of his/her time.

 

[A&S Conversions]

Two Form 4 machineguns, but only one that functional machinegun. So does the original owner have the original unregistered sear? Fleming did both front push pin and unaltered semi automatic receiver conversions. HTA, as far as I know, never did a front push pin conversion. Since the registered sear is married to this receiver right now, I would think that the front push pin could be installed in the registered receiver because there is no destruction of an unregistered sear. Once the push pin conversion is completed, then divorce the register sear from the registered receiver.

With documentation, that might fly. But a push pin HTA MP5, without documentation as to why the the receiver has a front push pin would be very problematic. It would be cool to get a push pin RR and a registered sear for $25,000. Sell the HTA RR and put that money into host guns. Good luck with the project.

Scott

 

[michaelkih]

Does the sear have a serial number on it? It is my understanding that because of some problems with changing information on the forms, the NFA Branch is checking previous forms compared to the form submitted. This sounds like a nightmare transfer and could get this transferable thrown out of the registry.

Personally, I would never buy a RR with an unaltered semi automatic receiver and a unregistered sear. Which begs the question, was someone trying to alter the paperwork to make an unregistered HTA sear into a transferable? Or back in the day when registered sears were cheap, did some "repair" a HTA machine gun with a transferable sear because the unregistered sear or pack with the unregistered sear would lost or destroyed?

The HTA gun was registered as a RR. If a transferable sear was "married" to the receiver, this might be a loophole to have the semiautomatic shelf removed and the front push pin installed. My understanding is that the FATD ruled that manufacturers and private individuals could not destroy the unregistered sear and install a push pin as drilling the hole makes the receiver a machinegun, but the unregistered sear has been ruled to be a machinegun. So that would be two items that are ruled to be a machinegun with only one registration. Because the registration states that the receiver is the registered part, as a collection of parts, if the unregistered sear is destroyed first, then the receiver being a semiautomatic, there is no functional machinegun. So in modifying a semiautomatic receiver with an unregistered sear, there would either be two machines or no machineguns according to the FATD. Of course the FATD might consider a registered sear "married" to the receiver to make the receiver an unregistered SBR because there is not enough room to use two auto sears.

To me this is a nightmare. If there is a registered sear market value is around 30,000 with some HK parts. At best, the HTA receiver gets modified, divorce the sear and have two HK machineguns. It all sounds like lawyers and problems.

Scott

ETA "Tranny" is the cool kids way of saying transferable.

I agree with you 100%.