Anyone getting in on these? Fostech echo!

CoffeeFreak

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I don't believe they have shipped yet, I kind have jumped ship and got the new and improved BFS3. So far it's Flawless in 9mm/22/223. Gonna do full write up by Friday. Just some more testing. "0" hammer flow thus far!!! :)))

Does it come with a BATF letter saying it's kosher?
 

komodoj

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Not that I'm aware of but then neither does the echo platform? There approval letter that echo has is based on there older first design. Not there updated finialized version? ;-)



Does it come with a BATF letter saying it's kosher?
 

komodoj

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This is a quote if found so far?

Both companies offerings have been approved by the ATF for meeting the definition of “semi-automatic” despite having two shots per “pull” (at least in the conventional sense) of the trigger. To meet the ATF’s requirement, specific movement is required to release both shots and the cycle can be broken by switching the trigger packs back to semi-auto.




Does it come with a BATF letter saying it's kosher?
 

MPA guy

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That trigger looks like it would work OK in conversion uppers too since it looks like a standard AR15 trigger and hammer.

Many years ago, I bunked up an 80% lower. One of my fire control holes were off. I don't remember which, but one of them was just enough that the trigger was binding.

And to get that lower to work right, I had to shorten the disconnect top a little because the hammer was battering it when the bolt cycled. When I did and released the trigger, there wasn't enough meat for the hammer to hold on to at that point, which resulted in what I thought was a "double" at the time. It fired upon the pull, and fired again upon the release.

Later that evening, I tig welded the hole and redrilled it and discarded the mucked up parts because I didn't want to risk being in violation because of an honest screwup, but that is one of the things that I took away from that mistake. It looks like doubletap triggers has discovered essentially the same thing as I did by accident from looking at their parts assembly.
 

SecondAmend

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That trigger looks like it would work OK in conversion uppers too since it looks like a standard AR15 trigger and hammer.

Many years ago, I bunked up an 80% lower. One of my fire control holes were off. I don't remember which, but one of them was just enough that the trigger was binding.

And to get that lower to work right, I had to shorten the disconnect top a little because the hammer was battering it when the bolt cycled. When I did and released the trigger, there wasn't enough meat for the hammer to hold on to at that point, which resulted in what I thought was a "double" at the time. It fired upon the pull, and fired again upon the release.

Later that evening, I tig welded the hole and redrilled it and discarded the mucked up parts because I didn't want to risk being in violation because of an honest screwup, but that is one of the things that I took away from that mistake. It looks like doubletap triggers has discovered essentially the same thing as I did by accident from looking at their parts assembly.

Back in the 2008-2010 time frame I had two NIB Ar-15s that did the same thing. I both instances it was an incorrectly cut hammer to disconnector sear interface angle on the hammer. I ended up sending the hammers back to the manufacturers.
 

MPA guy

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I contacted doubletap triggers and asked a few questions.

I think you'll be able to read the reply to know what all I asked.

--------------------------------

Hey, The pull and release triggers have been around a long time. I never sent one in for review because there is no point in doing so. There are existing triggers with similar functions as my trigger system.

The letter I have online is for reference to why my trigger is legal and doesn't fall under NFA laws.

I understand your concern about having a ATF approval letter. Have you ever notice on the so called approval letters that they just reference the law and say if it does or doesn't fall under it. They never say "yeah that's legal or not"

You can negate the second round by pulling the charging handle back and releasing the trigger. This will eject the round and return the trigger to the pull position.

THIS TRIGGER IS A PULL AND RELEASE TRIGGER ONLY. NOT A SELECT FIRE. SAFE/DOUBLE TAP ONLY. NO SEMI MODE.

It is possible to outrun it and have hammer follow. It really all depends on the AR 15 it going into. Best combo of parts is a standard buffer and a stronger buffer spring. But every rifle differs.

The disconnector isn't the only modification to the parts. If that was the case the disconnector would not engage the hammer to hold it back for the release shot.

They are available now.

Thank for the interest.
 

Junkcollector

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You can negate the second round by pulling the charging handle back and releasing the trigger. This will eject the round and return the trigger to the pull position.
[/I]

Simpler yet, I made one using parts from a 3 round burst parts set. After pulling trigger for first shot move selector from auto to semi. Let go of trigger, no shot. Then you can move selector to safe.
 

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Concorde

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Simpler yet, I made one using parts from a 3 round burst parts set. After pulling trigger for first shot move selector from auto to semi. Let go of trigger, no shot. Then you can move selector to safe.

That's great -- sounds like it has the same type of "second-shot-cancellation" that the BFS and ECHO trigger do. Are there details posted somewhere of how the burst parts get configured to make this double-tap setup you show? I've got a full-auto AR but haven't looks at the innards of a 3-round burst mechanism.
 

attherange

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AHHHHHH…….You guys realized the same effect can be achieved by simply installing the disconnector spring up side down. Just say'n :)
 

Junkcollector

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This is all done on an AR15
Best pictures I could get on my cheap digital camera.
These are the parts I used.
Remove ratchet wheel, replace with spacer.
Trim back right hand hammer catch a small amount to accomplish what you want to do.
 

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Concorde

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AHHHHHH…….You guys realized the same effect can be achieved by simply installing the disconnector spring up side down. Just say'n :)

A broken hammer pin can also give one shot when the trigger is pulled and fire again when it's released. But neither method is a particularly consistent nor safe way to do it. I'd rather have the selector intentionally be able to disengage the second shot if desired... AND be able to shoot in normal semi mode when the selector is pointed that way.
 

Captain murrica

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This is the same trigger I referenced in post #81, it comes in the "liberator" AR's from liberty gunworks and checkmate guns. Didn't know they were selling stand alone triggers, before it was sold as part of gun or nothing. Checkmate guns llc Facebook page pictures has a banner from a gun show with "double tap" triggers advertised. I never bought into it for two reasons, they wanted almost 2k per gun, and the mentioned clearing after first pull. The operation would be cumbersome at best. Lgw is the maker and sells the rifles and checkmate has rights to pistol sales.
 

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West_Texas_King

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That trigger looks like it would work OK in conversion uppers too since it looks like a standard AR15 trigger and hammer.

Many years ago, I bunked up an 80% lower. One of my fire control holes were off. I don't remember which, but one of them was just enough that the trigger was binding.

And to get that lower to work right, I had to shorten the disconnect top a little because the hammer was battering it when the bolt cycled. When I did and released the trigger, there wasn't enough meat for the hammer to hold on to at that point, which resulted in what I thought was a "double" at the time. It fired upon the pull, and fired again upon the release.

Later that evening, I tig welded the hole and redrilled it and discarded the mucked up parts because I didn't want to risk being in violation because of an honest screwup, but that is one of the things that I took away from that mistake. It looks like doubletap triggers has discovered essentially the same thing as I did by accident from looking at their parts assembly.

I did some work on an AR trigger years ago, trimming sear surfaces, changing angles, polishing, etc. and had it down to a very crisp 1.5lb pull. That was great, but it also made the barbaric reset that much more obvious....so off I went to work on the hammer to get the reset shorter. Worked fantastic for thousands of rounds (it's better than many of the big name triggers out there), then one day I decided to add a heavy hammer spring to it for a 5.45 upper. That's when it started to exhibit some very interesting properties.

Occasionally I would get doubles, and simply attributed it to an inadvertent bumpfire (it happens on light triggers and semi-autos every now and then). One day I was particularly concentrating on a shot and had it let go of 4 shots all at once, which is unusual because I can't bumpfire to save my life and I could feel some trigger slap to it. So I dropped the mag and got to investigating with dry fire.

The amount of force the hammer exerts on the disconnector (in the direction of restting the trigger) was more than the force required to pull the trigger. If you exerted just the right amount of pull on the trigger, it would fire, the hammer would catch and apply more forward force to the trigger, and your finger would be "reset" along with the trigger. One it resets, the forward force caused by the hammer is gone, but since you're still putting 1.5-2lbs of force on it from the last pull, your finger has no more resistance and pulls the trigger again. Apparently my finger was flapping back and forth at cyclic rate but only ever so slightly...I'd imagine high speed video would be pretty amusing. It's sort of like bumpfiring but self contained within the trigger itself, and instead of recoil forces, you're dealing with spring forces.

The trigger operated normally if you didn't ride or maintain pressure on it, and the hammer wouldn't fall if you hold the trigger down. If you don't hold any pressure on the trigger during release, it resets normally and fires normally. Quite a bit different in operation compared to a binary or a double, as technically the hammer didn't release unless you pulled it yourself...one shot per trigger pull. I would imagine if I ever did find a way to replicate such a trigger, that it would likely be given approval with ATF. Problem being, I don't know how I'd be able to "shut it off", so it would be a range toy at best.

At any rate, the spring was removed and replaced with the old one. The last thing I want is to have a second shot go off when I'm not wanting it, and didn't want to risk the possibility that ATF wouldn't find it as funny as I did.
 

attherange

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A broken hammer pin can also give one shot when the trigger is pulled and fire again when it's released. But neither method is a particularly consistent nor safe way to do it. I'd rather have the selector intentionally be able to disengage the second shot if desired... AND be able to shoot in normal semi mode when the selector is pointed that way.

I totally agree. There are several methods to create abnormal and inconsistent modes of fire. I would also add my 2 cents here; if the weapon doesn't already have the ability for select fire, then I always consider it a risk. The bad habits formed from these triggers is going to be a problem some day. Not trying to crap on range fun...... just say'n.......
 
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