Beta C Use w/ Mac Style Machine Guns

[A&S Conversions]

There is another thread about magwells for the new Lage upper. I brought up the Beta C drum for the possible MP5 magwell for the new Lage upper. I have tried to move the Beta C specific stuff here so I won’t clutter up someone else’s thread.

I would suggest putting a snap cap in first and 99 rounds of 9mm behind it when loading a Beta C. The linked aluminum dummy rounds inside the feed tower, have the top dummy spacer rounded at the back. That way the bolt is supposed to ride over the top dummy round in the feed tower when feeding the last round, because there is no flat surface for the bolt to push. The problem is, the bolt can still gouge a piece of aluminum, out of the top dummy round. At a minimum this can gouge up that top round enough to make it rough, possibly causing feed pressure inconsistency in the inside the drum. At worst these pieces of the aluminum from the dummy round can get into the action and damage or bind the firearm mechanism. Stray aluminum pieces just do not seem like a good thing in a tight tolerance mechanical mechanism, at least to me.

I would also recommend a Lula Loader to load the Beta C. The tower is plastic. The loaders that shove the rounds between the plastic feed lips can stress, wear, and break the plastic feed lips. The Lula Loader pushes the rounds down so the next round is dropped into the mag without stress to the plastic feed lips.

Apparently since Betaco is out of business, prices have doubled on GB for Beta C drums https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1076725305 as here is a 9mm Beta C for the for the HK MP5 version with a starting bid of $400. I would imagine that with that market value and Betaco out of business, someone will bring a knockoff 9mm 100 round drum to market. I am glad that I have extra towers in stock for the drums that I have.


I really like the Beta C drums. I really wish that Betaco had made a steel feed tower option. The plastic feed lips and the plastic mag catch notch in the feed tower are fragile. The Lula Loader saves the plastic feed lips fairly well. The last three towers that I wore out and had to be replaced were because the mag catch notch rounded from use so the fully loaded drum didn’t want to stay in the magwell as the mag catch could not hold the drum in.

The MP5 was the first 9mm version of the Beta C drum, which as I recall, was released the summer of 2003. In the late spring early summer of 2004, through my FFL, I bought some Law Enforcement marked 5.56X45 with AR towers and two MP5 9mm Beta C drums. The weekend after September 13, 2004, I went by and picked them up from my FFL . The Colt 9mm version didn’t come out until late in 2006? There was a guy who used modified Uzi mags with a Colt style mag catch notch to make steel feed towers for the 9mm Beta C drums. Once Betaco came out with the plastic Colt 9mm towers, he stopped making the steel ones. The steel towers were expensive and especially 9mm Beta C drums are a very niche market. But you can use stripper clip style loaders with a steel tower.

More than half the Beta C drums that I own, I bought used. Most of those came from semi auto owners that bought them on a lark. They used them a couple of times and then sold them. I remember the first time I used a Beta C. I had decided to buy a M16. While waiting on the Form 4, I tried the first Beta C I bought for the M16, in my semi AR. I remember somewhere around 85 to 90 rounds thinking “I hope this mag runs out soon. My trigger finger is getting sore.” That was the only time I have shot a Beta C in semi.

The tower needs to be clean and dry for use with graphite. These mags need that graphite lubricant. I don’t know as I would want to use one in a situation in which my life depended on it, but they really extend trigger time over a 30 round mags, that tends to last less than two seconds of trigger time in auto. I really like having around ten seconds of trigger time with the Beta C drum. Don’t get me wrong, the 100 round Surefire mags are also a lot of fun, but they are 5.56X45 only. But they do lock the bolt back after the last round. The Beta C doesn’t. 100 round mags are such a niche product. I would love to have a couple of EndoMag 9mm inserts for my 100 round Surefire mags but I would have to build them myself, as there is no way EndoMag would build them.

IMHO Beta C mags are really only valuable to machine gun owner. They are expensive and problematic, but a 100 round Beta C dump always brings a smile to my face. They don’t burn up ammo quite as fast as a belt fed, but if you have multiple Beta C mags, you can come pretty darn close to the volume of fire of a belt fed. I hope this information has been helpful, or at least interesting to some of you.

Scott

 

[strobro32]

I hope KCI get 9mm 100 drums up and running. Their AR drums work pretty good... not Korean RWB crap.

 

[A&S Conversions]

You would think someone would have bought the business. There is still so much that could be done. The drums themselves are fairly robust. I find that it is the towers that are the weak spot of the system.

There are still many mag systems, especially in 9mm that were never made by Betaco. I do see that https://drummagazines.com/ar15-100r...t-hold-open-rwb#mz-expanded-view-142140141257 has a similar product to the Beta C for a very reasonable price. I have never used one, but for a little over $100, if I was looking for another AR-15/M16 100 round drum, I would try it. Do you have any experience with the RWB drums? Why’d you say you don’t want them?

Scott

 

[strobro32]

Yes I do. The AR15 Korean RWB drums were advertised as having reinforced metal feed lips like the Korean KCI Gen2 ones. The RWB drums do not have reinforced or metal feedlips. RWB drums do not provide graphite with the drums or say their drums need it. All 100 round drums need graphite. Both RWB drums I purchased had the dummy rounds installed upside down. The top of the RWB dummy links are not tapered to let the bolt ride over the last link. Even the RWB Nylon pouches feel cheap. I sent them back for a refund.

I threw my 26 round RWB G21 mags in the trash because they did not fit my CMMG and barely fit my G21. I had constant FTE, FTF with them and rarely held the bolt open on the last round. They were super cheap and I tested 4. They are now in the land fill.

KCI AR15 100 drums can still be found under $100 when on sale at Gunmagwarehouse. I really like the Gen 2. They have steel reinforced feed lips, come with loaders, pouch and graphite. The KCI 100 round drums worked. I tested 2 units for 2000 rounds. I had one failure to feed out of the testing.

 

[root]

I've tried the KCI drum in the Lage 10/15 it works.

PSA makes 50 rnd drums for the EVO and they are aluminum housing.
These work great.
Magpul makes a 50 rnd drum for the MP5 and it also works well for me.
Brownells had the MP5 drums on sale a year ago for 50 bux each.
And PSA had the EVO drums on sale for 33 each when 1st released.
I've never seen either that cheap since.

While not 100 rnds like a BetaC they are 20 more rnds then a standard mag and about as long as a 20 rnd MP5 or 35 rnd EVO mag. Eliminating that mono pod feature.
I'd purchase some BetaC drums if someone bought the IP and started production now that there a few uppers that can use them.
Always passed on them for the simple fact of what you pointed out Scott.
In semi they get old fast in both loading and then trying to empty them one pull at a time.

 

[A&S Conversions]

Fortunately for me, I have one pre ‘94 .223 Beta C that I got in trade for a LEO marked .223 drum. The pre ‘94 has three screws to attach the back side of the feed tower to the drum. None of my Beta C mags, whether 9mm or 5.56 have steel reinforced feed lips in the Betaco feed towers. Some of my LEO marked drums came with stripper clip loaders. They worked fast with stripper clips but they would wear and break the plastic feed lips within eight or ten mag loadings . So I switched to the Lula Loaders.

That is the odd part, you would think someone would have bought the tooling from Betaco. Since USGI mags are aluminum, I would think that making an aluminum base to weld the top half of a USGI mag to make feed towers for Beta C drums. To me, the weak point in the design of the Beta C is the feed tower. I would think that the USGI aluminum feed tower would fix the problem.

Now this has got me thinking. I am still waiting on the determination for the Tenko. I need to pull my feed towers out and look them over. The 9mm towers for the MP5 and the Colt system and the USGI mags Might be a good place to start. I would think that 10 round mag bodies would be a good starting point for 9mm towers and the USGI mag bodies. Or maybe make a collar to use Pmag bodies. Or possibly make a collar that adapt an EndoMag guide in a P-mag to use the 9mm Beta C drum, for use with the rotary delayed upper.

Scott

 

[Slowmo]

A company named Armatac makes 150rd drums for the AR15.

 

[strobro32]

I like mine but it is not AS reliable as the KCI 100 rd drums. Armatac says not to use graphite but I think I'm going to try it to see if it improves function.

I sent Armatac an email to see if they considered making 9mm drums.

 

[strobro32]

Anybody know someone who would have an economic interest in making high capacity 9mm drums for slowfire SMGs with multiple magazine tower versatility?

That person would need to have an historic awareness of easy to load 9mm drum design, acute aerospace and SMG firearm design, above average manufacturing predictability, and excellent customer service skills.

It would be a bonus if they were willing to drink chicken broth for lunch in pursuit physical fitness conditioning for competitive subgun matches.

 

[A&S Conversions]

To be honest, I have not heard much for feedback about the Armatec drums. Thank you for your experience “strobro”. There is quite an exponential rise in cost for capacity of an ammunition feeding device. A 30 round mag, $10-$15, a 50-60 round mag or drum , $60-$100, 100 round mag or drum, $100-$300, a 150 round drum over $400, and a belt fed system, around $5,000. IMHO 100 round plus ammunition feeding devices are really only a machine gun owner market. Yes there are those who spend $10,000+ on a semi auto belt fed. But I would guess that that demographic would be 0.0000000001% of the US population. There would be no international sales without State Department involvement.

As far as a 9mm drum with multiple towers, the Beta C drums are around, but that will be pricey now that Betaco is out of business. At one time Betaco did sell most of the mag towers that Lage have listed. For the Glock and Uzi towers, Betaco made collars to fit the Glock 33 and Uzi 32 mag bodies. I would think that a collar could be printed to fit a Z-mag mag body to a 9mm Beta C drums.

Let’s face it, there is a very small market for the 100+ round capacity drums. Like “Vegas SMG” and the tungsten bolts, this project isn’t going to happen unless someone has a passion for drums. I am sure that there are several members here that have the skills to make such a project happen. The biggest question is, do any of them want to make it happen commercially? Because, I would think that the only person who would, needs to be someone who wants such a system. But beyond building such a system for yourself, there is a big difference between making it and making it commercially available.

Scott

 

[Slowmo]

I like mine but it is not AS reliable as the KCI 100 rd drums. Armatac says not to use graphite but I think I'm going to try it to see if it improves function.

I sent Armatac an email to see if they considered making 9mm drums.

I love this picture. I think you’ve posted it before, but it always makes me think of an anti-aircraft MAC

 

[strobro32]

Thank you. It's the reason no one's reporting drones over N GA.

 

[amphibian]

There was a guy who used modified Uzi mags with a Colt style mag catch notch to make steel feed towers for the 9mm Beta C drums. Once Betaco came out with the plastic Colt 9mm towers, he stopped making the steel ones.

I have one of these made from a factory Colt 9mm mag that bolts on to a Beta C but never used it. I think member 'Subgunner' here on UZItalk was selling them for the guy that was making them 20+ years ago.

 

[root]

It's ashame the suomi drums are so thin since they are still pretty plentiful.
Only thing you can really stuff in them is 9mm but history & fabricators have proven they convert kinda easy over to other 9mm platforms.

We had another member who was converting the KCI drums over to other stuff like the 556 AK. No interest in that personally since mine is a semi and sticks are just fine.

One option for MP5 would be a KCI mag and suomi drum married.
But again with the MagPun 50 I doubt it's worth the trouble after seeing what it takes to marry a uzi or M/11 tower to the drum and have it work.

A little side story on what it takes to do plastic injection from 1st hand experience.
Had a chance to buy a plastic injection mold machine 3 years ago when we bought our new property. Was the last machine shop I cleaned out.
and it came with a few contracts.
Was a turn key operation once the machine was moves and setup.
The machine it's self was 21 ft long owner claimed it was the smallest injetion mold machine made.
It was slow, it turned out 4 plastic foot pegs per mold every 2 minutes.
1 inch square by 1.5 inches high.
He got 1dollar per four pegs cost was 10 cents.
He said average mold cost for his machine was around 10k to be made. with a few @ 2k and the largest most complicated running just under 100k.
And it was limited to 6 inch square by 3 inch thick molds

I believe him since I have talked to Bill Atkins on the phone several times in the past and his accelorator bump stock molds were just over 100k per stock design and he had 5 offerings for the 10/22 in it's hay day.

Pretty much tells me plastic molding for the home shop is not a economical option.

Now we have 3d printing and I'm pretty sure good quality drums could be printed like they are doing now days with the Huxworks suppressors.
again a steel 3d printer is not something that is going to be cheap for a guy to just go and get.
I know drums can be printed with 3d printers as there are a ton of 3d drums and chainguns printed for the NERF guys. ( really amazing stuff ).

What I see is startup cost killing anyone small from making commercial drums.
It's going to take a medium to large company with the capital already in the bank to get a drum out to market.
I would think ProMag could do it. Hell the only products they seem to make that work are drums.
I've said it before I'll say it again they should change their name to ProDrum.
While I'd like to see the returm of the Beta drum I'm not sure how well it would do today.
They once were the only game in town. Now there are probably over 5 companies cranking out drums from questionable quality to plain just work out of the box.

 

[strobro32]

Thank you for your service root. You are a real asset to the forum. I personally enjoy your posts.

 

[A&S Conversions]

I have one of these made from a factory Colt 9mm mag that bolts on to a Beta C but never used it. I think member 'Subgunner' here on UZItalk was selling them for the guy that was making them 20+ years ago.

Thank you, that is where I got mine, but was a modified Uzi mag. It does work well. But I would think that the metal tower last so much better than a plastic one.

Scott

 

[A&S Conversions]

It's ashame the suomi drums are so thin since they are still pretty plentiful.
Only thing you can really stuff in them is 9mm but history & fabricators have proven they convert kinda easy over to other 9mm platforms.

We had another member who was converting the KCI drums over to other stuff like the 556 AK. No interest in that personally since mine is a semi and sticks are just fine.

One option for MP5 would be a KCI mag and suomi drum married.
But again with the MagPun 50 I doubt it's worth the trouble after seeing what it takes to marry a uzi or M/11 tower to the drum and have it work.

A little side story on what it takes to do plastic injection from 1st hand experience.
Had a chance to buy a plastic injection mold machine 3 years ago when we bought our new property. Was the last machine shop I cleaned out.
and it came with a few contracts.
Was a turn key operation once the machine was moves and setup.
The machine it's self was 21 ft long owner claimed it was the smallest injetion mold machine made.
It was slow, it turned out 4 plastic foot pegs per mold every 2 minutes.
1 inch square by 1.5 inches high.
He got 1dollar per four pegs cost was 10 cents.
He said average mold cost for his machine was around 10k to be made. with a few @ 2k and the largest most complicated running just under 100k.
And it was limited to 6 inch square by 3 inch thick molds

I believe him since I have talked to Bill Atkins on the phone several times in the past and his accelorator bump stock molds were just over 100k per stock design and he had 5 offerings for the 10/22 in it's hay day.

Pretty much tells me plastic molding for the home shop is not a economical option.

Now we have 3d printing and I'm pretty sure good quality drums could be printed like they are doing now days with the Huxworks suppressors.
again a steel 3d printer is not something that is going to be cheap for a guy to just go and get.
I know drums can be printed with 3d printers as there are a ton of 3d drums and chainguns printed for the NERF guys. ( really amazing stuff ).

What I see is startup cost killing anyone small from making commercial drums.
It's going to take a medium to large company with the capital already in the bank to get a drum out to market.
I would think ProMag could do it. Hell the only products they seem to make that work are drums.
I've said it before I'll say it again they should change their name to ProDrum.
While I'd like to see the returm of the Beta drum I'm not sure how well it would do today.
They once were the only game in town. Now there are probably over 5 companies cranking out drums from questionable quality to plain just work out of the box.

Thank you for your insight into the injection molding. There are big shops that do volume 3D printing. My engineer had asked me about, once the Tenko went into production, we should look into injection molding for the small plastic parts. I just can’t see where we would ever have the volume to justify the money for a mold for any parts for a niche item.

Scott

 

[amphibian]

Thank you, that is where I got mine, but was a modified Uzi mag. It does work well. But I would think that the metal tower last so much better than a plastic one.

Scott

I never really warmed up to Beta mags as I hate relying on graphite powder to make them work. Have you found that the metal towers help with that? I'd rather use a modified Suomi drum or even welded extended mags. Anything to avoid lubing the drum.

 

[root]

ummm thanks Strobro.
Not sure I'm really doing anyone a service lol.
I've been retired for the last 3 years and a lot is changed in just that time.
Prices just gave me sticker shock yesterday helping a friend that still has his FFL/SOT.

Anywho.
Injection molding might be worth it for you if you can get all your small parts into one mold and find a shop that will do the injecting.
Best would be find the shop and have them make the mold so there are no issues with fitment and such.
Get a estamate 1st. If a shop won't give you one to start, start with a different shop.
I can't help with a shop but I can help get the steps in order so a shop doesn't laugh you out of the office.
Commercial 3d printing is still rather expensive.
Best entry level would be Prusa for commercial they make some of the better small shop commercial printers starting out @ about 10k
You can get one for 5k from them but it's cosidered hobbiest or developer grade not commercial.
Best to look at their website and talk to them with what you will be printing so they can pick a filiment that will go the distance to keep you from replacing small parts due to premature wear.
Also there is MIMs injection casting S&W along with other gun Mfg. have profected it. Would just need to find a shop willing to cut molds and do the MIM work. ( MIM = metal injection molding ).

Any one of these would also work for the betaC you would just need to find a shop with a freed up machine that will hog out a mold.
Figure out what everything cost. plastic Vs MIMs Vs 3d prints and what would potentinally give the best quality compared to investment.
Then figure what springs, hardware, packaging, assembly, and see how many need sold Vs cost of investment/time.
Then pray real hard nothing hidden pops up or a mold fails and needs recut or material increase between drawings and final product.
Or any other bad voodoo that seams to rear it's ugly head when ever someone tried to make a honest buck.
I know from speaking with you Scott you don't want to do anything inhouse but for a single person it really is the only way to maximize profits.
And sometimes the only way to make any profits.
And I do realize with a lot of what you are doing outsourcing is the best bet to bring the tenko to market.
I've looked into a few shops for sale that the gun community is familiar with over the last 18 years.
Out sourcing stopped me on buying the IP for one.
And I didn't have the room to keep my own water jet at the time to cut the parts.
New owner has never brought a single item to sale since he bought it.
I have a feeling he jumped before getting quotes.

Just look @ what coffeefreak & Vegas went through to get the CFW.
Read through the old threads for the headaches and hurdles they had.

Now look @ lage who does pretty much everything but anodizing and barrel rifling. Sure I bet he has his headaces but he at least he is having them in shop and 100% accessable to revise them.

I'll shut up now!

 

[A&S Conversions]

I never really warmed up to Beta mags as I hate relying on graphite powder to make them work. Have you found that the metal towers help with that? I'd rather use a modified Suomi drum or even welded extended mags. Anything to avoid lubing the drum.

My experience is very different. I don’t mind the graphite. I usually put some in after the first 10-20 rounds, at about half way, and 10-20 rounds before the mag is fully loaded. I tend to run my guns “wet”. CLP doesn’t mix well with graphite. The two together will make a gummy paste. So when running Beta C drums I’ll need to wipe down the excess oil after cleaning. Doing so, I have had very good luck with the Beta C drums.

To me the biggest downside is the plastic feed towers. Like the plastic lips of the Zytel (SP) mags, the feed lips wear and then you get double feeds. I have six 5.56 with AR towers and five 9mm with Colt, HK, Uzi and even an adapted Zmag tower. There is just a lot of friction points in the design. The graphite really helps with that. If I am going to use Betas in a match, I make sure to clean them and always have at least two. They are not an item that I would bet my life on and they are more bulky to change than a stick mag. But a subgun stage that needs more than one is unusual.

They have been great for testing the Tenko. My rule of thumb is that I run one Beta C or four 30 round mags, then change the upper. Three uppers can cool off in the winter. For summer I use five uppers. After running the last upper, the first one is cool enough to hold my hand on the bare barrel. The gas tube in a carbine length system will rupture somewhere between 200-300 rounds when using 100 round magazines. I find if I run the second 100 round magazine, the upper is so hot that it is easy to get burned removing the upper. I seem to get much greater barrel longevity if I stick to the 100/four 30 round rotation schedule.

I only have that one steel tower. I always use the graphite. You can get away with two loadings if you have been regularly using the graphite. If it works, don’t mess with it has been my Beta C mantra.

Was it Barrel Exchange that used to weld towers on Suomi drums? As I recall many owners said that they worked fine. But 71 round capacity versus 100 round capacity seems better to me. Mag changes with drums are a little more time consuming than stick mags. So to me the Beta C is the better option for open divisions for subgun matches.

Scott