Counterfeit contraband...?

[Jack007]

I'm surprised a knowledgeable outfit like this would list this?
But, if in fact it came from Terry's collection... He had a LOT of nice guns. So maybe they think that's all they need for provenance?
Maybe I'm missing something, but this has so many red flags... The "Cobray" logo should be enough.

EARLY, OPEN BOLT 45ACP RPB SAP M-10 PISTOL. | Guns & Military Artifacts | Online Auctions | Proxibid

Cal. 45 ACP. S# S78-6611. Bbl. 6" threaded. An early, full-size MAC 10 semiautomatic pistol. There are very few firearms that conjure up the imagination of the general public more than the mere mention of the MAC 10. The Ingram Model 10 was originally designed in 1964. It would become the 1st of...

www.proxibid.com

 

[atfsux]

For those of us not hip enough to know, please explain.

 

[LawBob]

For those of us not hip enough to know, please explain.

Open bolt semi auto pistols were “outlawed” by atf as being too easy to convert to fa in1982.



This is what killed tec9s…. And why they previously had the gang following.

Hold:

Ok if Grok is correct, you had to register them as a MG

https://x.com/i/grok/share/r2uRtwf1CNbbyyETI2lJLTv96

• The ATF sent letters to every registered owner whose name and address they had (from warranty cards, dealer records, etc.).
• Owners were given a one-time amnesty/registration period (usually 30–90 days) in which they could:
  1. Register the pistol on ATF Form 4467 (the old NFA registration form) as a machine gun,
  2. Pay the $200 making/transfer tax (waived for some of the early amnesty registrations),
  3. Get an approved tax stamp, and then legally keep it forever as a registered, transferable machine gun.

 

[slimshady]

Never trust ai, they often get things wrong. There was no requirement for most open bolt firearms to be registered as machine guns. A lot of people did because they were easy to convert, but if you come across one nowadays and it's still semi-auto it's just like any other pistol legally. You just can't make any more of them.

The famous exception to this is the spitfire carbine. It was found that if you pushed on the safety while firing it would go full auto. That particular firearm had to be registered as a machine gun even though it previously sold as a semi auto. That's because it actually was a machine gun without modification.

And the tec 9 died because of the assault weapon ban of 1994. It was developed from an open bolt machine gun but the tec 9 and later ban compliant models were always closed bolt.

 

[Jack007]

Open bolt semi auto pistols were “outlawed” by atf as being too easy to convert to fa in1982.



This is what killed tec9s…. And why they previously had the gang following.

Hold:

Ok if Grok is correct, you had to register them as a MG

https://x.com/i/grok/share/r2uRtwf1CNbbyyETI2lJLTv96

• The ATF sent letters to every registered owner whose name and address they had (from warranty cards, dealer records, etc.).
• Owners were given a one-time amnesty/registration period (usually 30–90 days) in which they could:
  1. Register the pistol on ATF Form 4467 (the old NFA registration form) as a machine gun,
  2. Pay the $200 making/transfer tax (waived for some of the early amnesty registrations),
  3. Get an approved tax stamp, and then legally keep it forever as a registered, transferable machine gun.

Gotta be one of the funniest things I've read in awhile. Hilarious.

 

[Jack007]

This firearm is obviously counterfeit.
It was made from a stamped flat. The flat was commonly available after RPB went out of business. The new company trademarked the Cobray logo and conspicuously added that to the previous logo.
The serial number is nowhere near any used by the original manufacturer.
The manufacturer's info is engraved rather than rollmarked and not even close to the original font.
Numerous guns like this were made in the late 80's early 90's and peddled at gun shows. The sellers may or may not have known their legal status. It's entirely possible that in recent years, some may have even entered the legal market and resold on 4473s. That doesn't change their completely illegal status as machine guns.
Oh, it's a total myth that open bolt firearms were "outlawed". ATF can only make rulings, not laws. Furthermore, they have never issued a single blanket ruling about open bolts. Each firearm design is reviewed on an individual basis. It is theoretically possible an open bolt design might be approved today, but it would have an uphill climb based on ATFs arbitrary "ease of conversion" guidelines.

 

[Deerhurst]

Never trust ai, they often get things wrong. There was no requirement for most open bolt firearms to be registered as machine guns. A lot of people did because they were easy to convert, but if you come across one nowadays and it's still semi-auto it's just like any other pistol legally. You just can't make any more of them.

The famous exception to this is the spitfire carbine. It was found that if you pushed on the safety while firing it would go full auto. That particular firearm had to be registered as a machine gun even though it previously sold as a semi auto. That's because it actually was a machine gun without modification.

And the tec 9 died because of the assault weapon ban of 1994. It was developed from an open bolt machine gun but the tec 9 and later ban compliant models were always closed bolt.

"AI" is just a fancy name for a slightly better search engine. Garbage in, garbage out.

I have several open bolt semis dating back to the 1930s. There is some really interesting history with open bolt semis. Some really rare ones too. Two of mine are of a run of 5000 between 1931 and 1934. They are the same make and model but so different they don't even use the same mags!

 

[A&S Conversions]

That is correct that ATF cannot make law. But they do give determination. The courts default to those determinations. So to the courts, the ATF has determined that open bolt semi auto pistols are easily converted into a machine gun. The definition Congress gave of a machine gun includes “easily converted to shoot more than one round per pull of the trigger”. But since ATF cannot make law, they cannot amnesty firearms made before a certain date. Only Congress can do that.

A court has already ruled that “pre ‘81” DIASs cannot be “grandfathered” by the ATF. The ATF has determined that DIASs are machine guns. So unless a DIAS or open bolt Mac style firearm was entered into the NFA registry prior to May 19, 1986, it is not legal for a private individual to possess or have under his control a DIAS or a Mac style open bolt firearm.

Is law enforcement going to hunt you down if you are in possession of either of these two items? I doubt it. But if you get Imperial Entanglements, that could become problematic. YMMV.

Scott

 

[Jack007]

Imperial Entanglements

VERY NICE!

 

[slimshady]

As far as I know other than the spitfire which came rather early, the only three specific open bolt guns ATF ruled on were the KG9 predecessor to the tec9, the various MAC open bolt semi autos, and a Sten mkii model called a YAC. All in 1982 and 1983. Those only covered those specific guns, not open bolts in general but unless there is no provision for a magazine ATF would likely classify any new design as a machine gun so people don't do it.

The DIAS was specifically ruled on by the court, essentially overriding the selective enforcement mandate. It is also a device whose only reason for existence is to convert a semi-automatic to a machine gun. There is no doubt as to what it is or its purpose.

Complete guns on the other hand were simply determined too easy to convert. That's a matter of opinion, and after the Chevron deference disappeared recently ATF is not considered the final word on that. I believe there was a video produced by the people making the MACs at the time showing how easy it was to convert closed bolt semi autos to machine guns using various means in an attempt to prove theirs were not any easier to convert than other guns. Any blowback closed bolt gun that uses push feed can be turned into a machine gun simply by jamming the firing pin forward.

ATF says a shoestring with loops on it are MGs, is a tube of super glue far behind? There's going to be some interesting court cases in the future.

 

[A&S Conversions]

There's going to be some interesting court cases in the future.

No, I don’t believe there will be. Our current society seems to be all about kicking the can down the road. From our lawmakers, to our courts, to the CEO of most corporations, “put it off till tomorrow, next week, next month, next year “ seems to be the mantra. I don’t know how many times I have heard “We can’t deal with that right now “.

Scott

 

[Jack007]

"There's going to be some interesting court cases in the future."

I tend to agree. I think the anti gunners will look to the courts, especially activist judges to push their agendas. Anti gun administrations and Leftist politicians may "wake up" to otherwise obscure rulings.
The future is probably going to be ultimately in the hands of the judicial system.

 

[Deerhurst]

No, I don’t believe there will be. Our current society seems to be all about kicking the can down the road. From our lawmakers, to our courts, to the CEO of most corporations, “put it off till tomorrow, next week, next month, next year “ seems to be the mantra. I don’t know how many times I have heard “We can’t deal with that right now “.

Scott

Current society is trying to take down the NFA. 1937 the NFA was ruled legal due to tax collected. Tax it not collected on most NFA categories starting January. There are at least 2 large pro gun groups with lawsuits filed. Congressional members have acknowledged these lawsuits in support of.


I never thought I'd ever see either of those things happen. The pendulum has shown signs of swinging the proper way. Keep that momentum moving!

Some states, like the disaster I live in, are trying to go against the Constitution, their own constitution and the people as fast and hard as they can.

 

[Jack007]

NFA is NEVER going to be repealed! EVER!
Removing SOME of the taxes was the BEST they could do. And they BARELY did that with all three branches in "our" camp.
But, people are entitled to their pipe dreams.

 

[slimshady]

You're right it probably never will be repealed. Overturned as unconstitutional is another thing entirely.

 

[Deerhurst]

NFA is NEVER going to be repealed! EVER!
Removing SOME of the taxes was the BEST they could do. And they BARELY did that with all three branches in "our" camp.
But, people are entitled to their pipe dreams.

People said they the same thing about bumpfire stocks becoming legal again, constitutional carry, the 9th circus making a sensible ruling, bruen, the NFA tax to go away, a a whole mess of other things.


Never is very short sighted and closed minded.


My wife tells me to be the change I want to see happen. I'm doing my part of exposing people to NFA and machine guns, showing them nothing NFA is scary, dangerous or special in any way other than artificially. Numerous people have bought cans, built SBRs or SBS because of me. Hell, might even be a couple MG purchases because of me. I love to own and build crazy and unusual guns and I love to share them. People that I share them with love them too. I've encouraged numerous people to get into building and I've pioneered several Title 1 builds for various parts kits AND released print packages for people to make their own parts making the entire thing less daunting. I have another 3-4 MG42s to help build, I'm working on a PPSh bolt for a friend free of charge which encouraged me to work on mine, which is the first parts kit build I ever did, and make it better. Got a few AKs to help people build too and teach them how to build AKs.

What are you doing for the 2A?

 

[Hey]

^ that last sentence could’ve been worded more politely.

I felt it best not to edit or remove.. as it would’ve undercut the positives & reasoning in the body of your message.

Let‘s all stay civil, we’re on the same team regardless the details.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

These counterfeits have popped up over and over for years now, this particular batch was obviously all made by the same shop… post 83 SWD logo flats, similar incorrect “RPB IND INC” markings that they read off of a atchisson knife (that marking was never used on the M10s), lousy painted or parked finishes etc etc..

Kinda cool guns though if it weren’t for the whole pound you in the ass federal prison thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I agree with Jack though, I don’t forsee the NFA being repealed. Bump stocks are a little different than a nearly 100 year old long standing legislation that restricts an item that is seen as evil and dangerous in the eyes of the public. “Everyone can own machine guns now!” Does not sound like something I could ever imagine the government proudly proclaiming in the current or future climate, regardless of the few small wins we have had over the years.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

As far as I know other than the spitfire which came rather early, the only three specific open bolt guns ATF ruled on were the KG9 predecessor to the tec9, the various MAC open bolt semi autos, and a Sten mkii model called a YAC. All in 1982 and 1983. Those only covered those specific guns, not open bolts in general but unless there is no provision for a magazine ATF would likely classify any new design as a machine gun so people don't do it.

The DIAS was specifically ruled on by the court, essentially overriding the selective enforcement mandate. It is also a device whose only reason for existence is to convert a semi-automatic to a machine gun. There is no doubt as to what it is or its purpose.

Complete guns on the other hand were simply determined too easy to convert. That's a matter of opinion, and after the Chevron deference disappeared recently ATF is not considered the final word on that. I believe there was a video produced by the people making the MACs at the time showing how easy it was to convert closed bolt semi autos to machine guns using various means in an attempt to prove theirs were not any easier to convert than other guns. Any blowback closed bolt gun that uses push feed can be turned into a machine gun simply by jamming the firing pin forward.

ATF says a shoestring with loops on it are MGs, is a tube of super glue far behind? There's going to be some interesting court cases in the future.

I’ll just leave this here

RPB vs ATF Video

Also, here’s an ad from a 1980s issue of Shotgun News for the SWD imported VOERE .22 open bolt rifle. It shows a list of all the open bolts the ATF had effectively banned

Apparently they did not halt the sale of the DEMRO/fox carbines. Probably why that RPB vs ATF video makes a point to show how easy it is to convert those FOX carbines.

 

[JwestAK]

That is correct that ATF cannot make law. But they do give determination. The courts default to those determinations. So to the courts, the ATF has determined that open bolt semi auto pistols are easily converted into a machine gun. The definition Congress gave of a machine gun includes “easily converted to shoot more than one round per pull of the trigger”. But since ATF cannot make law, they cannot amnesty firearms made before a certain date. Only Congress can do that.

A court has already ruled that “pre ‘81” DIASs cannot be “grandfathered” by the ATF. The ATF has determined that DIASs are machine guns. So unless a DIAS or open bolt Mac style firearm was entered into the NFA registry prior to May 19, 1986, it is not legal for a private individual to possess or have under his control a DIAS or a Mac style open bolt firearm.

Is law enforcement going to hunt you down if you are in possession of either of these two items? I doubt it. But if you get Imperial Entanglements, that could become problematic. YMMV.

Scott

I believe you're combining the lawful definition of a machine gun, and the ATFs interpretation of open bolt auto loading firearms. Actual definition of a machine gun states "Readily restored to shoot", But does not say easily converted. Whereas the ATF maintains that open bolt MAC firearms were originally designed to be full auto, so even semi autos are originally designed and "easily converted". However they also stated that open bolt semi auto MAC firearms are legal as long as they were manufactured before June 21, 1982.

From ATF Rule 82-8
"With respect to the machine gun classification of the SM10 and SM11A1 pistols and SAC carbines,
under the National Firearms Act, pursuant to 26 U.S.C. 7805(b), this ruling will not be applied to SM10
and SM11A1 pistols and SAC carbines manufactured or assembled before June, 21, 1982. Accordingly,
SM10 and SM11A1 pistols and SAC carbines, manufactured or assembled on or after June 21, 1982,
will be subject to all the provisions of the National Firearms Act and 27 C.F.R., Part 479."

With all of that, as others have stated, there are countfits out there which would violate ATFs rule and in their eyes make them machine guns.