Fall 2010 KCR National Subgun Match Update

[Paul Winters]

Well, Knob Creek is around the corner and with that the KCR National Subgun match. Friday’s match has several openings along with a few remaining slots on Saturday. This match is titled ‘Knob Creek Rescue’ and it should be a good one. You can let us know afterwards.

A couple of updates to keep all y’all up to date. The squading times are on the half hour and the first squad should start at 8:30 (we have been on this schedule for quite a while and now the website and printed scheduling matches. We have in the past had issue of having people missing from some squads and overly packed at other squads. If a person schedules to shoot at, say the fourth squad, they should be able to shoot at that squad and not have to wait till next squad (that is the plan). In order to help, the On Deck Range Officer has been asked to squad based on the following priorities;

1. Shooters at the correct squadding time.
2. Shooters ready from the next squad
3. Shooters who missed their squad earlier

In the end of the day, everyone will get to have their run. I would encourage everyone to show up ½ hour before you are squadded to shoot to be ready for the shooter briefing. I know this will be an issue with some shooters as we proceed forward, but hopefully this will be of benefit as we proceed. This may also change the time you ask to be squadded in the future.

Also, for this match, shooters will start with a magazine loaded with only 30 rounds. We have done this before and this may imply something for those of you who have had to do this in the past.

If you wanna play, don’t wait too long. If you are already signed up, see you there. Maybe it won’t rain.

Paul Winters
Match Director

 

[chili17]

crap I will mail in my forms tonight!

 

[carcass]

Will you be allowing .300 Whisper this time?

 

[Paul Winters]

Unfortunately, it is not.

The 300 whisper is a necked rifle cartridge and as such is not allowed. The subgun match is designed around pistol cartridges such as 9mm up through 45 ACP. The only necked cartridge allowed is the 7.62x25 as long as the barrel length does not exceed 12" (the PPSH41 and PPSH43 have 10 5/8" barrels). The 7.62x25 is a classic Russian subgun round and there are AR variants being manufactured as well. I am sure the 300 Whisper round is suitable in the Assault match.

Paul : -)#

 

[Garrett]

The 300 whisper is a necked rifle cartridge and as such is not allowed...The only necked cartridge allowed is the 7.62x25 as long as the barrel length does not exceed 12" ...

Hmmm. Supersonic 7.62x25 is going to hit the steel a whole lot harder than subsonic .300 Whisper. And supersonic Whisper is going to hit a little harder, but not all that much.

To put it into perspective, a .300 Whisper with a subsonic 220 gr. bullet is going to hit slightly harder than a .45 ACP from a subgun-length barrel, and nowhere near as hard as an MP5/10mm.

Personally, making and loosing that much Whisper brass is too much of a pain for me to want to shoot that caliber, but if someone else wanted to, I'd kind of like to see it. You could always mandate subsonic ammo only in that caliber.

If you were worried about someone accidentally getting supersonic ammo in their mag, you could have a chronograph set up next to the start of the stage. It would add maybe 15 seconds to have the shooter load up, fire one round through the chrono to verify velocity, stay hot, and start the timer.

I would be happy to bring my chronograph if that's what it takes. I should be there by Thursday afternoon to help set up if you wanted to try it out. I could even bring a .300 Whisper for you to try out if it would help.

Just a suggestion.

 

[MrM4]

No way I can make it, to close to the honeymoon.

 

[Paul Winters]

Can o worms

Whether the 300 whisper, 7.62x39, or 308 can be made to produce pistol caliber energy isn't the issue. I am sure somewhere somehow, someone can take most any large cased rifle round and make it resemble a subgun round power factor and still cycle. This falls into what can be considerred an experimental rifle round. The subgun match is built around established subgun calibers. If the 300 Whisper were used in an established subgun format in the future by police or military, that might be a reason to reconsider. Until then it is a necked rifle caliber that has been downloaded. The Knob Creek match is usually near capacity and opening up the match to any rifle caliber round that may make the lower power factor opens a can of worms for power factor chronograph determination and also the possibilty of a rifle round getting in the mix and destroying a target designed for pistols calibers. The 7.62x25 is an established subgun caliber and while necked has case capacity limitation. Therefore, the design and intent of the Knob Creek subgun match rules do not allow for the possibility of allowing a rifle caliber in the match. It sounds interesting and I would like to see it in action, but the ruling must stand for the Knob Creek National Subgun Match.

Paul : -)#

 

[jim c 351]

Hmmm. Supersonic 7.62x25 is going to hit the steel a whole lot harder than subsonic .300 Whisper. And supersonic Whisper is going to hit a little harder, but not all that much.

To put it into perspective, a .300 Whisper with a subsonic 220 gr. bullet is going to hit slightly harder than a .45 ACP from a subgun-length barrel, and nowhere near as hard as an MP5/10mm.

Personally, making and loosing that much Whisper brass is too much of a pain for me to want to shoot that caliber, but if someone else wanted to, I'd kind of like to see it. You could always mandate subsonic ammo only in that caliber.

If you were worried about someone accidentally getting supersonic ammo in their mag, you could have a chronograph set up next to the start of the stage. It would add maybe 15 seconds to have the shooter load up, fire one round through the chrono to verify velocity, stay hot, and start the timer.

I would be happy to bring my chronograph if that's what it takes. I should be there by Thursday afternoon to help set up if you wanted to try it out. I could even bring a .300 Whisper for you to try out if it would help.

Just a suggestion.

Garrett,
I agree with you 100%. Why turn away a shooter if it harms nothing. Since the 30 whisper was developed for subsonic silencer use the test would be sonic crack. You wouldn't even need a chronograph.
I told carcass that I would asign a RO to let him shoot his gun with silencer attached. If it made no crack and didn't damage the plate, then he could use it at our June match at Tusco in Ohio.
However, after doing a marvelous job of argueing his point, carcass was a no show. So- in the end it really didn't matter.
Jim C