Freedom Ordnance FM-9 belt fed on a mac discussion thread

FreedomJosh

Well-known member
Feedback: 0 / 0 / 0
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
103
Ok guys obviously since the first day we released a teaser video I have had people email me about adopting our upper for a mac lower. I am going to open this up for discussion as long as the following can be observed.

1. We are a business of 8 people that must make a profit to feed our families. We pick products based on profitably not "just because" and none of us own semi or full auto macs, though we do know one person with a full auto if we needed it for r&d, meaning none of us have a personal desire to make this a reality.

2. Yes we understand there is a good amount of full auto mac owners but getting enough of them to commit to a product and price point is all that matters. The FM-9 took a year and a half so you can imagine the $ for dev.

3. The FM-9 was created not just with the M16 crowd in mind but also the 7 million+ semi auto AR15 crowd in mind as well.

4. Getting someone that spent 20-30k to spend $2500 is much easier than getting someone who spent $5000ish to spend that same $2500.

5. We aren't looking for people to come on here and say "it's simple and shouldn't cost more than $x" if it's that simple and cheap then we would love for you to do it instead of us and we will sell you parts :)

6. If we can't make a good product for a profit we won't make it. Our personal feelings won't allow us to make something cheap just to put in on the market and as such be prepared to not like our price or for the product to be cost prohibitive to get made leaving use with just a discussion.

All in all I am looking for discussion that gets us the information we need to see if this is a viable product. I'm not here to argue that can be done in other threads so lets keep it positive and maybe get a new product on the market! :twoguns
 

Hey

Moderator, UZI Talk Life Member
Staff member
Feedback: 14 / 0 / 0
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
Messages
3,587
Location
Atlanta
I'm willing to put up a deposit (refundable if never produced) for an M11/9.
 

medphys

UZI Talk Life Member
Feedback: 62 / 0 / 0
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
7,587
Location
NW Ohio
You've already done the hard work. All it will take now is for someone to modify it for an open bolt. Offer up a couple feed mechanisms at cost, and I'm sure someone will take the lead.
 
Last edited:

ChuckB

Well-known member
Feedback: 11 / 0 / 0
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
1,209
As I understand it, the # of M11/nines in the registry is about the same as M16's. I don't think the 7 million AR15's are going to buy in for the most part, under the same logic you applied to the MAC's.

There are also about as many M11 .380's as M11/nines, and the difference is small.

So it is quite possible you will sell more MAC belt feds than M16.

My feeling is go ahead and get that .308 version working, then consider the MAC in rifle caliber. That is where the demand is.
 

SecondAmend

Well-known member
Feedback: 13 / 0 / 0
Joined
Apr 3, 2007
Messages
1,980
FJ,
Thanks for taking time out of your normal work and/or personal life to open this discussion thread. I have no interest in a MAC platform (or the existing AR-15/M16 platform, for that matter) beltfed upper of any caliber. I have no interest in an Uzi or Thompson platform model either; though, interestingly, the Thompson submachine gun was originally planned to be a beltfed firearm. The designers nearly one hundred years ago couldn't get it to work. If you do decide to pursue a subgun beltfed apparatus, you may be able to reduce your R & D by learning from their unsuccessful attempts.
That said, I wish you and the other members of your enterprise as well as your customers all the best.
 

FreedomJosh

Well-known member
Feedback: 0 / 0 / 0
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
103
My feeling is go ahead and get that .308 version working, then consider the MAC in rifle caliber. That is where the demand is.

But are mac guys going to pay $5000 for that .308? We already have M16 interest and the platform doesn't need modification. Ive already seen the threads on the Sabre and Khimera (been lurking on theses forums a long time before deciding to post) If $2500 for the sabre was expensive and even someone saying over $1000 for anything is robbery what is expected? It doesn't matter how many macs are there as I stated it's about getting enough of them to pull out their money and so far I have 1 guy that said he would do a refundable deposit...
 

Gaujo

UZI Talk Supporter
Feedback: 10 / 0 / 1
Joined
Sep 11, 2013
Messages
4,469
Location
Raleigh, NC
Ok, let's take a look at your current offering, which MSRPS for around $2,500, and has the more spendy m16 crowd as well as a legitimate crowd of 7m ar-15 owners for a demographic.

Assuming you have to increase the price of the MAC version to reflect the smaller number of potential sales, let's guess it would need to be priced at $3000. Does this sound in line with your own thoughts?
 

FreedomJosh

Well-known member
Feedback: 0 / 0 / 0
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
103
Ok, let's take a look at your current offering, which MSRPS for around $2,500, and has the more spendy m16 crowd as well as a legitimate crowd of 7m ar-15 owners for a demographic.

Assuming you have to increase the price of the MAC version to reflect the smaller number of potential sales, let's guess it would need to be priced at $3000. Does this sound in line with your own thoughts?

We honestly have no clue what the price would be as that is going to be determined by interest. We may not even get enough to warrent R&D that's why I need people that will tell me "yes I will buy it and Im willing to spend x" if the majority vote on X is 3k or 4k great but if the majority is $1500 or less I don't see it coming to a reality. Is belt fed a higher value than a rifle caliber? I ask because as I mentioned I have looked at the discussion surrounding the rifle caliber uppers and the prices being thrown around.
 

ChuckB

Well-known member
Feedback: 11 / 0 / 0
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
1,209
But are mac guys going to pay $5000 for that .308? We already have M16 interest and the platform doesn't need modification. Ive already seen the threads on the Sabre and Khimera (been lurking on theses forums a long time before deciding to post) If $2500 for the sabre was expensive and even someone saying over $1000 for anything is robbery what is expected? It doesn't matter how many macs are there as I stated it's about getting enough of them to pull out their money and so far I have 1 guy that said he would do a refundable deposit...
Probably not. I can see $2500. Sure a few (noobs) said that was too much, but there is interest at that price point.

Most of us would have pulled the trigger on the SABRE if it worked. AA had a bad rap from the Saiga world before they ever got the MAC's; so some of us were wary.
 

FreedomJosh

Well-known member
Feedback: 0 / 0 / 0
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
103
Probably not. I can see $2500. Sure a few (noobs) said that was too much, but there is interest at that price point.

Most of us would have pulled the trigger on the SABRE if it worked. AA had a bad rap from the Saiga world before they ever got the MAC's; so some of us were wary.


That's helps me know that the concern wasn't price. Our concern is people not valuing the machine time and R&D costs. The .308 for the ar15/m16 will be priced around 5k. Again the more interest there is the lower the price can be but there is also a part where even on a large scale machine time is machine time. I appreciate the feedback so far keep it coming!
 

Hey

Moderator, UZI Talk Life Member
Staff member
Feedback: 14 / 0 / 0
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
Messages
3,587
Location
Atlanta
I'm willing to put up a deposit (refundable if never produced) for an M11/9.

My ceiling is $3,000 regardless the product/caliber.

I'd rather have a 9mm because its a high appetite weapon and 9mm is much cheaper to run and more pleasurable to fire than rifle full auto.

I like the m11 because its compact. Willing to accept lage size for a belt fed, but don't want much bigger for some alien rifle looking thing.
 

ChuckB

Well-known member
Feedback: 11 / 0 / 0
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
1,209
That's helps me know that the concern wasn't price. Our concern is people not valuing the machine time and R&D costs. The .308 for the ar15/m16 will be priced around 5k. Again the more interest there is the lower the price can be but there is also a part where even on a large scale machine time is machine time. I appreciate the feedback so far keep it coming!
My dad was an aircraft tool designer his whole adult life, and I managed a tool design company for a couple years. I understand the process from the outside, and wish you the best.
 

FreedomJosh

Well-known member
Feedback: 0 / 0 / 0
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
103
My dad was an aircraft tool designer his whole adult life, and I managed a tool design company for a couple years. I understand the process from the outside, and wish you the best.

It's appreciated. We are still a new company so everything has to bring money in. We have about 120 parts in our FM-9 upper all machined our of aluminum or steel with the exception of a few pins, springs and 2 plastic parts of which one IS still machined as the mold costs don't make sense yet. So we have to be still make the FM-9, yes some parts will be usable for the mac version but there will be new parts and I don't even know if the ATF has to get involved as that's above my pay grade Im the green guy when it comes to guns Im just the marketing/sales computer geek getting all the data with some familiarity in machining.
 

FreedomJosh

Well-known member
Feedback: 0 / 0 / 0
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
103
My suggestion to you is to start an "Interest Thread Poll"? IMHO. It will better help you gauge exact interest?
Does the poll allow for multiple inputs as we aren't just looking for interest we also need to know what everyone is willing to spend
 

Hey

Moderator, UZI Talk Life Member
Staff member
Feedback: 14 / 0 / 0
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
Messages
3,587
Location
Atlanta
I say just work on developing an adapter that will attach the already working m16 upper.

The adapter would have to include the m16s FCG yet be actuated by the Mac trigger (albeit modified/proprietary) in the tax stamped housing. Plus the recoil rod(s) would have to extend over or to the side of m11 frame into a proprietary buttstock/recoil assembly which locks into the receiver slots. Otherwise you'd have to TASK drill the m11 lower to pass the ATF sniff test.

I'm not willing to drill a TASK style hole and I'm willing to bet many others won't.
 

TonyM

Well-known member
Feedback: 6 / 0 / 0
Joined
Jul 25, 2012
Messages
948
Location
FL
At $2500 street price, 90% probability I would buy one. As the price increases, my probability decreases.

Make one in a rifle caliber, add a grand to that price, and a less abrupt decline curve against price.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.

Please Visit our Sister Sites Below

Sister Board - Sturmgewehr Sister Board - MachinegunBoards


Please consider becoming an UZI Talk Supporter
Top