Freedom Ordnance FM-9 belt fed on a mac discussion thread

[ChuckB]

At $2500 street price, 90% probability I would buy one. As the price increases, my probability decreases.

Make one in a rifle caliber, add a grand to that price, and a less abrupt decline curve against price.

That is where I'm at also, but I'll add to me rifle caliber = .223Rem or 7.62x39. .308 full auto is a bit rich for my caste.

 

[robertmcm]

Hell, I'd be in on the belt fed upper for an m11/9 at a price point between 2500 and 3k

 

[cockednlocked45]

The adapter would have to include the m16s FCG yet be actuated by the Mac trigger (albeit modified/proprietary) in the tax stamped housing. Plus the recoil rod(s) would have to extend over or to the side of m11 frame into a proprietary buttstock/recoil assembly which locks into the receiver slots. Otherwise you'd have to TASK drill the m11 lower to pass the ATF sniff test.

I'm not willing to drill a TASK style hole and I'm willing to bet many others won't.

The Many others already have.

 

[gt3499a]

I would buy one at 2500. The 6" barrel makes the most sense on the m11/9 platform

The m16 fm-9 combination has a nice and slow rate of fire. Hopefully this a benefit of the mechanism going slow. What is the weight of a current fm-9 bolt with and without the removable bolt weight?

It would be a shame to have to move the belt all the way forward of the m11/9 receiver just because it would make the gun so much longer. if you try to make the belt in line with the magwell, then the upper receiver is going to have to be riding high above the m11/9 receiver when it gets to the back. That is going to make for some stock, cheek weld, and appearance issues. Some photo chopper could assist us with that..........

 

[CoffeeFreak]

I would be in for one depending on the finished product. PM sent to you Josh.

 

[komodoj]

Yep!!! Search some polls. It allows whatever? Here's an example of one?


http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?79713-CFW-M10-45-and-M11-380-Slowfire-Bolts

Does the poll allow for multiple inputs as we aren't just looking for interest we also need to know what everyone is willing to spend

 

[TheColtCollector]

Josh if you were to make a 9mm beltfed upper, honestly I think the Mac market is somewhat saturated with good products. Even if you had a belt fed upper ready to go now, I'm not sure how many buyers would pay 2-3 times the price of a lage upper. I don't think the money you stand to make would cover your time in R&D.

However you could command any premium you wanted with rifle caliber stuff

 

[strobro32]

You guys have done well with your 9mm belt fed conversion for the M16/AR.

But let's face facts. A $2500 adapter that allows a M11 to use M16 uppers?!... no way. That's impossible, even for the BEST engineers.

 

[root]

I would be in for one at 2500.00 rifle Cal.
Or 9mm for less or close to 2500.00

My problem is I own a MAC 10.

I almost bought one of your 9mm uppers in 6 inch for my SBR

Only reason I didn't was I had never heard of your Co.
And I didn't want the SHRIKE or AA problems.
Seeing you post here asking to expand that upper to other platforms is reassuring to say the least.

As I said I'd be in for one for the MAC 10.

I am going to look further into the AR uppers now for down the road.
Like everyone else I've been blasting forms out to the BATFE to beat the 41F deadline.

Rich
PS:
Did I mention I need one for the MAC 10?

 

[skoda]

Personally I'd pay up to $4000 for a 9mm and $5000 for a .223/5.56 belt fed. But then I've wanted a belt fed for a long time and don't want to spend $15,000 plus.

I like what you did with the FM-9. Very innovative. And from what we can see you are making a decent product and are standing behind it.

That's me. From a broader perspective I would say that for a 9mm to sell it has to be much better/funner/cooler/interestinger than what I can experience with a $400 bag full of 50 round Z-Mags. If all I get is 100 round shots before the thing starts to melt then it's not really worth it. If I can do 200 plus round dumps then it's different. Maybe offer a water jacket option.

The other alternative is to offer a .223 version. Then my little cheap MAC becomes something MUCH more interesting and more than the sum of it's parts and accessories. Now I am playing in $15,000 MG-land and it's still somewhat affordable to shoot. This also brings in the Lage factor where my $5000 MAC is now going to jump up to $8000 because even more people want it. This will help push up the value of the MAC and then the stomach-ability of paying thousands for an upper.

I agree with the idea of making a Khimera-esque middle piece with some Franken-AR-MAC trigger system in it. It won't be so compact but then you can sell the FM-9 unchanged and most any other uppers without additional development and tooling.

 

[FreedomJosh]

I would be in for one at 2500.00 rifle Cal.
Or 9mm for less or close to 2500.00

My problem is I own a MAC 10.

I almost bought one of your 9mm uppers in 6 inch for my SBR

Only reason I didn't was I had never heard of your Co.
And I didn't want the SHRIKE or AA problems.
Seeing you post here asking to expand that upper to other platforms is reassuring to say the least.

As I said I'd be in for one for the MAC 10.

I am going to look further into the AR uppers now for down the road.
Like everyone else I've been blasting forms out to the BATFE to beat the 41F deadline.

Rich
PS:
Did I mention I need one for the MAC 10?

I understand your hesitation but from we launched a teaser video I believe it was September first, I lurked all the forums as they shouted it's vaporware then 6 weeks later we shipped our first batch of units to customers who were on a wait list that required nothing but their email. With just a little bit of forum searching and google you can see we have far exceeded expectations in quality and customer service I welcome any email or phone call questions, email is a quicker response but leave a message on the office phone and I will return it pretty quick as well. I also answer emails in the off hours

 

[FreedomJosh]

Personally I'd pay up to $4000 for a 9mm and $5000 for a .223/5.56 belt fed. But then I've wanted a belt fed for a long time and don't want to spend $15,000 plus.

I like what you did with the FM-9. Very innovative. And from what we can see you are making a decent product and are standing behind it.

That's me. From a broader perspective I would say that for a 9mm to sell it has to be much better/funner/cooler/interestinger than what I can experience with a $400 bag full of 50 round Z-Mags. If all I get is 100 round shots before the thing starts to melt then it's not really worth it. If I can do 200 plus round dumps then it's different. Maybe offer a water jacket option.

The other alternative is to offer a .223 version. Then my little cheap MAC becomes something MUCH more interesting and more than the sum of it's parts and accessories. Now I am playing in $15,000 MG-land and it's still somewhat affordable to shoot. This also brings in the Lage factor where my $5000 MAC is now going to jump up to $8000 because even more people want it. This will help push up the value of the MAC and then the stomach-ability of paying thousands for an upper.

I agree with the idea of making a Khimera-esque middle piece with some Franken-AR-MAC trigger system in it. It won't be so compact but then you can sell the FM-9 unchanged and most any other uppers without additional development and tooling.

Have you seen our 1000 round belt on youtube?

We would love for someone to make the middle piece that allows us to not have to do anything but sell more uppers lol I honestly have no clue what's involved with either option

 

[FreedomJosh]

Yep!!! Search some polls. It allows whatever? Here's an example of one?


http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?79713-CFW-M10-45-and-M11-380-Slowfire-Bolts

What I meant was can the poll allow someone to write in how much they would pay or do I just need to come up with a bunch of numbers lol

 

[FreedomJosh]

I would buy one at 2500. The 6" barrel makes the most sense on the m11/9 platform

The m16 fm-9 combination has a nice and slow rate of fire. Hopefully this a benefit of the mechanism going slow. What is the weight of a current fm-9 bolt with and without the removable bolt weight?

I don't know the bolt weight but the 6" model doesn't use the removable weight as it's a blow back system so it needs all the pressure it can get. From my understanding we would have to design a new bolt and lots of other stuff anyone so the only stuff we get to keep from the current FM-9 would probably be the quick change barrel system, the top cover and possibly the feed tray but that's just a guess.

 

[yzfchet]

My $0.02:

The M11/NINE, the M11a1, M10/9, and M10/45 are already pistol caliber subguns. I would ignore any probable semi-sales...if they occur it would be a very small number.

Because they already shoot pistol calibers the attraction for a product you would produce for the subguns would be for rifle caliber - either magazine or belt feeding. THe most inexpensive, common, and popular rifle caliber is 5.56mm.

I honestly question whether R&D costs ($125K+?) would be recovered within a year for a 9mm belt fed version upper for 9mm (or .380 or .45) sub-machine guns. The M16 being a rifle caliber MG has a much greater potential sales target for a 9mm belt fed upper.

That said, if you could design, debug, and get BATFE Tech Branch approval on a rifle caliber upper for the M11/NINE platform, which is the most populous of these types on the registry, and offer it for $2500 or less I believe you could recover R&D within the year and accrue profits thereafter.

The cost to customer is cost per unit + R&D/x units + profit per unit until R&D is fully recovered. Dropping price (rare but not unheard of) after R&D is recovered to stimulate sales is a possibility. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know - I'm just laying it out for all to understand.

Your question at the start of the thread was in regards to an M11/NINE version of the FM-9 belt fed upper. To get some sort of answer that is even in the neighborhood of helpful would probably best be done with a poll. Said poll should question -

"I would buy an FM-11/9 for no more than $3000"
"I would buy an FM-11/9 for no more than $2750"
"I would buy an FM-11/9 for no more than $2500"
"I would buy an FM-11/9 for no more than $2250"
"I would buy an FM-11/9 for no more than $2000"
"I would buy an FM-11/9 for no more than $1750"

The poll should provide some insight into what this small group on UZI Talk - which is a small segment of the SWD/RPB/Ingram subgun owner pool - would be willing to pay for an FM-11/9.

As an earlier poster noted, the real proof of whether someone is talking crap or is serious about purchase is to get them to commit some deposit. Either a token non-refundable or a serious fully refundable deposit.

Regarding a rifle caliber possibility, I would start another thread for that subject and keep this one for the 9mm belt fed upper only.

 

[medphys]

We would love for someone to make the middle piece that allows us to not have to do anything but sell more uppers lol I honestly have no clue what's involved with either option

See post 3.

 

[lokifox]

I would probably buy one for the M11... I like interesting things.

That being said, the Lage MAX-31 is already available and allows me to shoot 72 rounds without a mag change. I am not the kind of person who would link up 1000 rounds of 9 and fire away. So there is really no novelty there. I think something truly innovative would grab market share, not just another 9mm with a larger "magazine".

If you want to build something for the MAC market build a .22 upper that takes AR mags. I cannot believe no one has done it commercially. They would sell like hotcakes. On another note I would pay serious cash to have a beltfed (or not) 5.56 or 7.62x39 upper.

 

[FreedomJosh]

I would probably buy one for the M11... I like interesting things.

That being said, the Lage MAX-31 is already available and allows me to shoot 72 rounds without a mag change. I am not the kind of person who would link up 1000 rounds of 9 and fire away. So there is really no novelty there. I think something truly innovative would grab market share, not just another 9mm with a larger "magazine".

If you want to build something for the MAC market build a .22 upper that takes AR mags. I cannot believe no one has done it commercially. They would sell like hotcakes. On another note I would pay serious cash to have a beltfed (or not) 5.56 or 7.62x39 upper.

Honestly we aren't interested in the mac market as I mentioned in my original post but the mac market has been interested in us from day 1 so I am trying to give those the opportunity to get us interested. The issue with rifle caliber is our desired price is not an interest to the mac market as I also mentioned in other comments. Nobody want's a belt fed .308 at 5k for a mac but that's what m16 people have already confirmed they would pay, being the next step up for a complete system is 13k I believe and those same people have already offered to pay 100% up front but we don't do that. If we don't have the money to make something we aren't going to ask people to finance it that's just how we look at things (learning from the mistakes of others).

 

[FreedomJosh]

See post 3.

I am more than happy to sell parts when they are available to someone who is a legit business that has the potential to make it happen. I actually thought about giving Marty a call, but came here first.

 

[DistalRadius]

Honestly, I was impressed with how your company rolled out the FM-9 to the public. A teaser... then an official announcement... then it was for sale. Thats it, no fuss, no handwringing, prepay, deposits, vaporware, whiners, etc. And it was actually available in real numbers for the stated price (I'm looking at you, KelTec). You guys even support your own product. Amazing! And I see where you're now selling the non-QC barrel model for a very reasonable price indeed.

Definitely the way to bring a product to market.