Galil ACE and it's potential use with Alpha Group.

[balkan]

This is my first post since I don't know where to put this, and the Galil/Tavor talk seemed to be the most appropriate for this discussion.

I've been wondering as to how well the Galil ACE would serve the Alpha Group of the FSB (Russian Security Service). I read somewhere that Alpha Group (and the Spetsnaz, to some degree) makes use of the M4 carbine in 5.56x45 for certain situations, like overseas operations. I don't know to what extent they use the M4, but it made me think that perhaps the Galil ACE would be a better alternative? It has the Western appearance of an M4, fires the same cartridge, but is generally more reliable and especially less prone to jam, not to mention, it uses the Galil mechanism, which is derived from an AK variant. This would make it seem like a more suitable pick for a special operations group in a country where the AK was invented, so they get the modernized M4 look but with the AK reliability. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Stottman]

As much as I like the Galil series, MANY SOF units use M4 type rifles, even when they have "better" rifles as their national assault rifle. Or at least, what looks better on paper. There is a reason for that.

Yes, maybe the Galil ACE would do better if your were shooting inside a sand filled room, or after you ran over the stock with a tank, but the M4s have allot more practical advantages.

 

[balkan]

As much as I like the Galil series, MANY SOF units use M4 type rifles, even when they have "better" rifles as their national assault rifle. Or at least, what looks better on paper. There is a reason for that.

Yes, maybe the Galil ACE would do better if your were shooting inside a sand filled room, or after you ran over the stock with a tank, but the M4s have allot more practical advantages.

I don't doubt the M4 has it's upsides, but can you elaborate on how the M4 would be a better pick for a counter-terror unit like Alpha Group over the Galil ACE? From what I've heard, the ACE has numerous advantages over the original Galil, including lighter weight and an adjustable M4-type stock, alongside a picatinny rail for additional optical sights and mounts. I also think that importing a Galil ACE from Israel to Russia would seem easier than importing the M4 series from the United States (although it is true that Russia can simply import M4s manufactured in friendly nations), which currently has sanctions placed on Russia, banning the import and export of weapons to and from Russia, while Israel doesn't maintain such sanctions as far as I'm concerned.

There's probably something I'm not seeing with Russian use of the M4. To be fair, I'm not such a huge fan of the M4, while I seem to take bit of a liking to the ACE, so I could be biased here. However, since this isn't about the Galil being the main service weapon of the Alpha Group (they're pretty much happy with their AK's success), it could simply serve alongside the M4 (instead of completely replacing it), in certain situations where it's abilities are required.

 

[AresShrike]

As I haven't handled the new Galil Ace "N" rifle yet, I can't really say which "points faster", or which really has faster reloads, or whatever, but, I'm sure the Ace is much more reliable under "extreme adverse conditions".
A lot of variables there.
It would lead one to wonder, why they don't just use their own AK-101, the 5.56 caliber "74", in their "overseas operations".
Maybe they want to look more "NATO", to initially, confuse an enemy, maybe.
It could even be something so simple as the Russians liking the Israeli's even less than the U.S.
Personally, I'd want the Ace, over the AR-15.
Hell, the Galil over the AR-15 too!!

And Welcome to Uzi Talk/Galil Talk, balkan!!!

 

[Stottman]

Weight-Besides the obvious "empty" differences, don't forget the current "Western" trend of using up every inch of rail. My issued M4 in Iraq weighed well over 15 pounds with day sight, M203, night aimer for rifle, night aimer for 203, day sight for 203, etc.. In other words, every bit helps.

Modularity- M4 wins again. Yes, the ACE has a rail system, but its not easily changed. Nor is the stock. This might not matter in a "Conventional" Army unit where things don't get changed out.. But in SOF units that have money to spend on the latest and greatest, they do.

Parts- Yes, the M4 breaks parts. Bolt locking lugs, and barrels get burnt out in the 8-10K range... That would take forever in a conventional unit, but in a SOF unit where all they do is shoot? Very short time. An M4 barrel can be changed out in 15 minutes with hand tools. A Galil? Not so much.

Human engineering/controls. Yes, the ACE is MUCH better then every other AK on the planet in this regards.. But hard to argue that its better then the M4 in this regards. When you add that the M4 is much better for a left handed firer, much harder. And they do train to shoot from both shoulders because of cover.

Those are just a few...

Finally, don't forget that the Russians actually make an M4 clone.

 

[balkan]

As I haven't handled the new Galil Ace "N" rifle yet, I can't really say which "points faster", or which really has faster reloads, or whatever, but, I'm sure the Ace is much more reliable under "extreme adverse conditions".
A lot of variables there.
It would lead one to wonder, why they don't just use their own AK-101, the 5.56 caliber "74", in their "overseas operations".
Maybe they want to look more "NATO", to initially, confuse an enemy, maybe.
It could even be something so simple as the Russians liking the Israeli's even less than the U.S.
Personally, I'd want the Ace, over the AR-15.
Hell, the Galil over the AR-15 too!!

And Welcome to Uzi Talk/Galil Talk, balkan!!!

The reason Alpha Group uses such Western equipment instead of simply using an AK in 5.556, is, as you said, so that they don't get recognized easily. Alpha Group's not known for advertising their operations at all, so they could be pulling an anti-terror operation in Egypt and we'd never even know it. As a matter of fact, they did conduct a hostage rescue mission in Lebanon during the civil war in 1985, in which four Soviet diplomats were taken hostage by Islamic extremists.

In regards to the Russians liking the Israelis less than the Americans, I don't think that's entirely true. Recent events have shown otherwise to an extent. Israel was one of the few Western nations to abstain from voting against Russia in the UN over the Crimean annexation, and even sold them 10 drones, 2 of which were shot down over Ukraine by the Ukrainian Army. While it is true that Ukraine produces licensed Galil variants, they currently don't have access to Israeli-made drones like the Kremlin does.

Thanks for the warm welcome, by the way.

 

[balkan]

Weight-Besides the obvious "empty" differences, don't forget the current "Western" trend of using up every inch of rail. My issued M4 in Iraq weighed well over 15 pounds with day sight, M203, night aimer for rifle, night aimer for 203, day sight for 203, etc.. In other words, every bit helps.

Modularity- M4 wins again. Yes, the ACE has a rail system, but its not easily changed. Nor is the stock. This might not matter in a "Conventional" Army unit where things don't get changed out.. But in SOF units that have money to spend on the latest and greatest, they do.

Parts- Yes, the M4 breaks parts. Bolt locking lugs, and barrels get burnt out in the 8-10K range... That would take forever in a conventional unit, but in a SOF unit where all they do is shoot? Very short time. An M4 barrel can be changed out in 15 minutes with hand tools. A Galil? Not so much.

Human engineering/controls. Yes, the ACE is MUCH better then every other AK on the planet in this regards.. But hard to argue that its better then the M4 in this regards. When you add that the M4 is much better for a left handed firer, much harder. And they do train to shoot from both shoulders because of cover.

Those are just a few...

Finally, don't forget that the Russians actually make an M4 clone.

Interesting. Did you happen to have also handled a Galil ACE, or even a Galil rifle in general at some point?

 

[Stottman]

Interesting. Did you happen to have also handled a Galil ACE, or even a Galil rifle in general at some point?

I have handled the ACE, and shot the Galil allot. Both on the civi side, and during my 20 years in the American Army. With the Estonian Army, and Columbians.

Also have allot of time behind Colt 733s, 727s, M4A1s, and M4s from that time.

 

[AresShrike]

The AR-15 certainly has it's advantages, as does the Galil, but, the Galil sure does look way cooler!! That's the most important thing!!

That Russian Diplomat hostage situation, wasn't that the one where the Russians found the families of the terrorists, and sent the terrorists, some body parts of their family members, as a warning to release the hostages, and "presto", they were released?

"....the KGB kidnapped a man they knew to be a close relative of a prominent Hezbollah leader. They then castrated him and sent the severed organs to the Hezbollah official, before dispatching the unfortunate kinsman with a bullet in the brain.

In addition to presenting him with this grisly proof of their seriousness, the KGB operatives also advised the Hezbollah leader that they knew the indentities of other close relatives of his, and that he could expect more such packages if the three Soviet diplomats were not freed immediately."

So much for that "politically correct" bullshit.
We'd be begging, sending instagrams, and "negotiating", until the next election!

 

[balkan]

The AR-15 certainly has it's advantages, as does the Galil, but, the Galil sure does look way cooler!! That's the most important thing!!

That Russian Diplomat hostage situation, wasn't that the one where the Russians found the families of the terrorists, and sent the terrorists, some body parts of their family members, as a warning to release the hostages, and "presto", they were released?

"....the KGB kidnapped a man they knew to be a close relative of a prominent Hezbollah leader. They then castrated him and sent the severed organs to the Hezbollah official, before dispatching the unfortunate kinsman with a bullet in the brain.

In addition to presenting him with this grisly proof of their seriousness, the KGB operatives also advised the Hezbollah leader that they knew the indentities of other close relatives of his, and that he could expect more such packages if the three Soviet diplomats were not freed immediately."

So much for that "politically correct" bullshit.
We'd be begging, sending instagrams, and "negotiating", until the next election!

Wait, was Hezbollah involved in this hostage crisis? From what I recalled, it was the Islamic Liberation Organization (a radical splinter group of the Muslim Brotherhood) that was behind the hostage taking. Not too sure, though. Can't be so sure, because that war was the definition of a mess.

Regardless, Stottman has a point. For SOF operations, the M4 would be the superior option, although it would still be interesting to see Russian special forces put the ACE to some usage. The Spetsnaz happen to also use the German MP7 PDW, so why not throw in a few quality IMI firearms to add to the bear's anti-terror arsenal? Besides, like the Israelis, the Russians are no strangers to facing terror attacks on their soil. After all, they haven't forgotten the time Chechen Islamists massacred an elementary school in Beslan, North Ossetia, which killed hundreds of school children. Israel's also has had it's share of terror attacks being conducted against it, so their wounds are very similar (although Israel is more at everyday risk, targeting school children in general is just downright heinous). Just imagine if the Mossad started cooperating with the Spetsnaz and Alpha Group. They both would be absolute hell for terrorists to deal with, considering their already fierce reputation. Apologies if this got a bit too political, but looking at today's atmosphere with the alarming rise of Islamic extremism, I think that Israel and Russia would be better off cooperating than getting at each other's throats.

 

[RSR]

Galil ACE (long stroke piston) and HK416 (short stroke piston), I'd say are probably rough equivalents insofar as reliability, etc.

The main reason the HK416 was adopted by special operations forces was that they wanted a compact platform for suppression. The direct impingement AR15 has reliability issues that increase exponentially as the barrel length shortens...

The main place where the Galil and the HK would differ is that the Galil piston vents go direct to atmosphere whereas there are AR short stroke piston designs that don't vent directly to atmosphere.
-Why is this important? Muzzle flash in the visible spectrum can be eliminated through flash hiders. However, no flash hider hides muzzle flash from the infrared spectrum. And night vision gear is becoming standard issue nowadays across many military forces...

You do have a point about plausible deniability, misdirection, etc, with using certain cartridges/calibers -- however, I would think the actual weapon used would matter less.
That said, Russian 5.45x39 cartridges (w/ their taper) have a design that is inherently more reliable w/ feeding and extraction than straight walled 5.56s, especially as barrel length shortens. In ball, 5.45x39 offerings are also not nearly as dependent on velocity for performance as are common 5.56 offerings -- though special ops typically use something other than ball...

The Israelis practice realpolitik when it comes to foreign policy. The current US administration is no friend to them... Remember during the Carter administration, he was very similar to obama in regards to his take on foreign policy and not being a friend to Israel either...
And early in reagan years, the Israelis supported Iran while the US supported Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war...
Point here is that the Israelis will always do what they believe to best provide security for their state as getting it wrong has dire consequences.

On Carter and Camp David Accords: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123449113090380603

US-Israeli foreign aid: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/foreign_aid.html

On Israel's support of Iran in Iran-Iraq war: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistori..._did_israel_support_iran_in_the_iraniraq_war/

 

[AresShrike]

RSR - excellent points and well said.
I just wonder, which short stroke AR-15 piston systems don't vent directly into the atmosphere?
Don't they all impinge directly on the piston, (whether short or long stroke) and vent prior to the carrier?

 

[Slingshot]

Honestly I trouble imagining many scenarios for the Russians to make use of the Galil Ace. It doesn't look enough like an M4 to use it clandestinely, outside of the countries that have adopted it.

In terms of utility they definitely have better kit available to them - the AK-107 jumps to mind.

Finally there's a matter of national pride - Russia wouldn't allow its special forces to use anything except local weapons by default. The equivalent would be the US Rangers using high quality Norinco CQs.

 

[balkan]

Honestly I trouble imagining many scenarios for the Russians to make use of the Galil Ace. It doesn't look enough like an M4 to use it clandestinely, outside of the countries that have adopted it.

In terms of utility they definitely have better kit available to them - the AK-107 jumps to mind.

Finally there's a matter of national pride - Russia wouldn't allow its special forces to use anything except local weapons by default. The equivalent would be the US Rangers using high quality Norinco CQs.

Well, for one thing, Ukraine actually does use the Galil Ace. So if the Kremlin just decided to conduct a black operation in the Donbass or in Ukraine in general, they could have their operatives use Galil Aces. In Ukraine, the Ace is produced under the designation "Fort-227".

 

[sniperdoc]

Silenced M4s are much quieter than silenced AKs.
All SOFs use multiple weapons systems, not just one.
Israel uses a lot of M4s, too.

 

[RSR]

RSR - excellent points and well said.
I just wonder, which short stroke AR-15 piston systems don't vent directly into the atmosphere?
Don't they all impinge directly on the piston, (whether short or long stroke) and vent prior to the carrier?

Adams Arms advertises their piston system as such: "Doesn't vent directly to atmospheric pressure; this eliminates flash signature and super sonic crack which is optimal for night vision and suppresses fire."

Pic from this thread: http://ar15armory.com/forums/topic/111604-piston-comparison-and-review-addax-and-adams-duke-it-out/

LWRC has a similar system.

Offhand, directly to atmospheric pressure pistons would be pistons like AK47s or VZ58s...

 

[sniperdoc]

The Galil, in all forms, is a modified AK.
Therefore, any AK could be similarly modified. No need for Russia to buy a Galil when they could build one.

I'm not knocking the Galil; I own one,& it's my favorite AK variant.
Just saying it would be far easier for Russia to clone it than buy it from a foreign source.

(Mine is a modified Golani.)

 

[lcastillo]

Honestly I trouble imagining many scenarios for the Russians to make use of the Galil Ace. It doesn't look enough like an M4 to use it clandestinely, outside of the countries that have adopted it.

In terms of utility they definitely have better kit available to them - the AK-107 jumps to mind.

Finally there's a matter of national pride - Russia wouldn't allow its special forces to use anything except local weapons by default. The equivalent would be the US Rangers using high quality Norinco CQs.

I am with slingshot. The Russian do have pride in weapons of the Motherland. Can't see U.S. Department of Defense authorizing M4's for Russia. Especially piston M4's because they are limited only in small numbers to US Elite Special Forces in the form of the HK417's. However I can see the Russian FSB ordering HK417's directly from the Germans. The Russian's have also had a chance to pick up M4's from modern day battlefields to use if they like. Then again you never know when it comes to international arms deals.

 

[balkan]

I am with slingshot. The Russian do have pride in weapons of the Motherland. Can't see U.S. Department of Defense authorizing M4's for Russia. Especially piston M4's because they are limited only in small numbers to US Elite Special Forces in the form of the HK417's. However I can see the Russian FSB ordering HK417's directly from the Germans. The Russian's have also had a chance to pick up M4's from modern day battlefields to use if they like. Then again you never know when it comes to international arms deals.

I guess after that brief war where Russia plowed down Georgia in 5 days, I could see them taking the M4s issued to the Georgians from the Bush administration. Also some Micro Galils and GALATZ rifles here and there, since Georgia was in possession of these weapons. Pretty much anything new and unusual the Georgians had, the Russians took from them. The Turkish Otokar Cobra infantry vehicle, advanced by 2008 standards, was especially a gold loot for the Russians. As sniperdoc said, they could just clone captured weapons and put them to limited use one way or the other. Same situation can apply to a Galil Ace captured by Donbass fighters, who'd most likely hand over a rifle like that to the Kremlin.

 

[RSR]

I am with slingshot. The Russian do have pride in weapons of the Motherland. Can't see U.S. Department of Defense authorizing M4's for Russia. Especially piston M4's because they are limited only in small numbers to US Elite Special Forces in the form of the HK417's. However I can see the Russian FSB ordering HK417's directly from the Germans. The Russian's have also had a chance to pick up M4's from modern day battlefields to use if they like. Then again you never know when it comes to international arms deals.

FWIW, both the M249 SAW (FN Minimi) and the Marine's M27 IAR (HK 416 variant) are piston systems as well... No shortage of piston operated weapons in the US/NATO arsenal.

Further, for elite units with the small number of weapons in question, there is no doubt that Russia could absolutely source if they so desired. Which leads to no elite unit is likely to rely on battlefield pickups barring a situation of severe ammunition/supply shortages...

Worth noting that Russia is exceptional at covert type actions, so their elite units carrying "native" weaponry on such missions really shouldn't be a surprise. I just don't believe that they are likely to be battlefield pickups...

And given the choice, any well-trained soldier would prefer to go war with the weapon he is most confident in using proficiently, which is almost certainly the one he has trained most extensively with...