Gauging Interest in Tungsten Slow Fire Bolts

[woodenword]

The only thing better than that setup in the pic is if you put the scope on the suppressor like Snake

I will forever be jealous of anyone that can shoot out the back door!

 

[GunsCarsPlanes]

Wishing yall luck on getting some new bolts to market. I have fully enjoyed my CFW-a bolt I got from Tom. Between the CFW bolt and Lage's offerings I feel like I have 4-5 machineguns in one.

What rate of fire is that? Incase I ever get the option to buy another lage upper, seems like they offer several rates of fire and whatever rate you just shot seems perfect, not too fast and not overly slow.

 

[GunsCarsPlanes]

We'd be happy to take you up on the offer to contact them. I will send you an email letting you know who we were dealing with.

Did anything ever materialize from the offer to make contact? I'm new to this site.

 

[CoffeeFreak]

Did anything ever materialize from the offer to make contact? I'm new to this site.

I made contact. Sam and I talked about it. Sam's got a lot of projects going.

 

[edman99]

Any updates? A tungsten bolt for my M11A1 would be great!

 

[Slowmo]

I made contact. Sam and I talked about it. Sam's got a lot of projects going.

If I remember right, political pressure was cited as one of the reasons that the previous machine shop was no longer interested in taking on the project. Obviously a lot has changed politically. Maybe a good time to call that machine shop up again.

 

[GunsCarsPlanes]

I will forever be jealous of anyone that can shoot out the back door!

I can shoot out of the back door; probably once before the wife wants to know what that was all about.

 

[Jmacken37]

Shameless plug, I just listed a CF-W 9mmA NIB on GB for $0.01 starting bid (auction begins 10:30pm tonight).

 

[Galil#1]

? Don't the heavy W beat the shit out of the receiver? 2-3-4 lbs of mass like a jackhammer affect? So ya beef up springs too? I'm M10 interested only.

 

[Jmacken37]

No. They don’t beat up the receiver. M10 has no CF love.

 

[SecondAmend]

No. They don’t beat up the receiver...

I have a M11-380 with reinforced front pin holes and an "A" tungsten bolt, and I'm not willing to go on record as saying that I consider that the W bolt is "receiver safe". I don't believe that the rear plate welds are in immediate danger, but I am concerned about possible front pin hole egging. The W bolt is double the weight of what the bolt that gun was designed to use weighs.

MHO, YMMV, etc.

 

[PUCKER]

Curious if this project is moving forward.

 

[JackBlundell]

? Don't the heavy W beat the shit out of the receiver? 2-3-4 lbs of mass like a jackhammer affect? So ya beef up springs too? I'm M10 interested only.

The Lage slowfire uppers for the M10 and M11 have been in use for well over a decade. They use large steel bolts of roughly twice the mass as the OEM bolt. I don't recall reading reports of egging issues coming from the use of these uppers.

 

[Fishman]

I have a M11-380 with reinforced front pin holes and an "A" tungsten bolt, and I'm not willing to go on record as saying that I consider that the W bolt is "receiver safe". I don't believe that the rear plate welds are in immediate danger, but I am concerned about possible front pin hole egging. The W bolt is double the weight of what the bolt that gun was designed to use weighs.

MHO, YMMV, etc.

Double the weight, but impacting slower. Kinetic energy is a function of velocity squared, so decreasing the bolt velocity a little decreases bolt energy a lot.

Even if you do egg out the holes, it's a very simple sheet metal repair job. Not nearly as big of a deal as egging out an M16 lower.

 

[Slowmo]

Double the weight, but impacting slower. Kinetic energy is a function of velocity squared, so decreasing the bolt velocity a little decreases bolt energy a lot.

Even if you do egg out the holes, it's a very simple sheet metal repair job. Not nearly as big of a deal as egging out an M16 lower.

That’s also why you frequently have to cut coils off the spring. Less rearward bolt kinetic energy, less compression of the spring. Which also means the bolt is being launched forward with less kinetic energy because there is less energy stored in the cut spring with the bolt locked back.

 

[SecondAmend]

Double the weight, but impacting slower. Kinetic energy is a function of velocity squared, so decreasing the bolt velocity a little decreases bolt energy a lot.

Even if you do egg out the holes, it's a very simple sheet metal repair job. Not nearly as big of a deal as egging out an M16 lower.

With all due respect, what you are describing is so-called large body Newtonian physics and while it might be generally accurate at a macro level such as perception of the recoil of the total firearm, the hole egging occurs at a molecular level. Think of it this way, a blacksmith swings a heavy sledge hammer slowly to form a horseshoe, he doesn't swing a tack hammer rapidly.

As for the repairing, I don't know what the cost of the repair plus refinish would be, but the cost and inconvenience of shipping any machinegun have both become somewhat more than what they were ten years ago when I bought the M11-380.

MHO, YMMV, etc.

 

[Gaujo]

I will forever be jealous of anyone that can shoot out the back door!

Anybody can do it. At least once!

 

[MACsAlot]

Update: A couple of weeks ago, we finally got a quote from the fabricator and it is significantly higher than what we were quoted a couple of years ago. We expected some increase, but the quote was higher than we expected. It's high enough that we aren't sure that we can sell the bolts at a price that makes it worth it to us and low enough that people would still be interested. That sorta pissed us off and sparked a fire under Sam's ass.

But this is where the story gets messy because now we'll combine 2 projects.

In the meantime, Sam has been working on a convertible steel bolt - one that is 2 pieces. The bolt carrier and the bolt face. The idea is If/when the bolt face wears out, simply replace it with a new bolt face. This makes it cheaper and easier to manufacture as well as to repair/replace a worn bolt. Additionally, this versatility will allow one to take an M10 bolt carrier and install either a 45 or 9mm bolt face in steel or in tungsten. For an M11/NINE or M11A1/380 gun, the bolt face can be interchanged with steel or tungsten - 9mm or 380. There are many options all at a low cost for this versatility.

Back to the tungsten bolt dilemma - now the guys are sorta pissed off by the quote. We've had a piece of raw tungsten stock sitting on the shelf for well over a year and we finally cut and machined a chunk of that tungsten into a bolt face. It machined beautifully and we were well pleased with it. They took that tungsten bolt face out, bolted it to our prototype bolt carrier for the M11/NINE size bolt and they took it out and test fired it. The ROF was 805 in an M11/NINE with our hybrid steel/tungsten bolt and 1255 with the OEM steel bolt. Not quite as slow as Vegas SMG's (We miss you, Tom) CF-W9mmA bolt but still pretty good and encouraging.

Where we are today: 1. We are taking the project back to a few fabricators to get current pricing to see if we can have them made affordably enough that you all would actually buy them. 2. We are seeing what these fabricators would charge us to make just the bolt face part for our hybrid bolt so that we don't have to make them in house. 3. We are pricing the raw tungsten to buy and machine them in house anyway. This step also includes buying tungsten in bigger dimensions to start making the M10 tungsten hybrid bolts.

There is a lot that's still up in the air right now, but this project is resurfacing back to the top of the project pile.

Thank you everyone for your continued interest.

t

 

[Donut77donut]

Update: A couple of weeks ago, we finally got a quote from the fabricator and it is significantly higher than what we were quoted a couple of years ago. We expected some increase, but the quote was higher than we expected. It's high enough that we aren't sure that we can sell the bolts at a price that makes it worth it to us and low enough that people would still be interested. That sorta pissed us off and sparked a fire under Sam's ass.

But this is where the story gets messy because now we'll combine 2 projects.

In the meantime, Sam has been working on a convertible steel bolt - one that is 2 pieces. The bolt carrier and the bolt face. The idea is If/when the bolt face wears out, simply replace it with a new bolt face. This makes it cheaper and easier to manufacture as well as to repair/replace a worn bolt. Additionally, this versatility will allow one to take an M10 bolt carrier and install either a 45 or 9mm bolt face in steel or in tungsten. For an M11/NINE or M11A1/380 gun, the bolt face can be interchanged with steel or tungsten - 9mm or 380. There are many options all at a low cost for this versatility.

Back to the tungsten bolt dilemma - now the guys are sorta pissed off by the quote. We've had a piece of raw tungsten stock sitting on the shelf for well over a year and we finally cut and machined a chunk of that tungsten into a bolt face. It machined beautifully and we were well pleased with it. They took that tungsten bolt face out, bolted it to our prototype bolt carrier for the M11/NINE size bolt and they took it out and test fired it. The ROF was 805 in an M11/NINE with our hybrid steel/tungsten bolt and 1255 with the OEM steel bolt. Not quite as slow as Vegas SMG's (We miss you, Tom) CF-W9mmA bolt but still pretty good and encouraging.

Where we are today: 1. We are taking the project back to a few fabricators to get current pricing to see if we can have them made affordably enough that you all would actually buy them. 2. We are seeing what these fabricators would charge us to make just the bolt face part for our hybrid bolt so that we don't have to make them in house. 3. We are pricing the raw tungsten to buy and machine them in house anyway. This step also includes buying tungsten in bigger dimensions to start making the M10 tungsten hybrid bolts.

There is a lot that's still up in the air right now, but this project is resurfacing back to the top of the project pile.

Thank you everyone for your continued interest.

t

Is there a waitlist for this?

 

[MACsAlot]

Is there a waitlist for this?

Yes. Please send an email to tina@macmachineguns.com and let me know if you want the bolt for the m11/nine or the m11a1/380 and if it’s for a 380 gun, is it a small or large mag well.