Gun safe locked up.

[deadduck]

Mechanical. Mechanical. Mechanical.
Technology with electronics and computers can be convenient, life saving and lightning fast IF they work properly.
When they fail, it’s not only inconvenient but it can be dangerous.
It’s bad enough this world ‘relies’ on shiny new tech to run everything but at least we have some choices to resist where we can and when it matters.

Would I buy a safe with an electronic lock? Sure, if it was practically given to me but I wouldn’t put anything in it until I switched it out for a dial combo.
Even small handgun safes are still available with those push button mechanical locks.

Power windows on cars are great… until the power goes out and then you wish you had a crank.

 

[slimshady]

Jones : "Don't look at the dogs, work the lock. Work the lock, don't look at the dogs... You looked at the dogs!"

Magnet open sesame.

 

[Jones]

Very true. "New" and "Improved" usually isn't either.
Ive been a machinist for 50+ years now and am still "chasing the dial".
CNC is impressive... until the power goes out. Then that soft rasping sound you hear over in the corner is me with a file, still making parts.

Slim, I'll run the magnet trick past my locksmith. I'm thinking that if it worked on my particular safe, he would have suggested it.

 

[cajun 22]

I'm not sure if this was covered but a replacement keypad may be all that is needed. I had a friend with the same issue and the keypad was not sending the juice to the solenoid. New keypad and the safe worked again.

Good luck.

 

[Jones]

Not sure cajun, all I can do is ask my locksmith.
The plug-in connector is sandwiched between the inner face of the circuit board and the inside of the diecast keypad housing. Might be tricky to get disconnected. Then there's the question of does the keypad send a command to the circuit board inside the door or just relay the keypad input and the inner door circuit board's IC then tells the solenoid what to do?

No to rare earth magnets. This solenoid pulls vertically; not horizontally (towards the inner surface of the door skin).

Deceptive wire routing. The cable runs into the door and makes, in my case, a turn to the right.
Bischoff throws would-be safecrackers a curve by locating the solenoid 180 degrees out. My solenoid is in fact, to the left.

 

[slimshady]

Think about it, if you were designing a safe lock with an external keypad and an internal board why would the keys do anything more than send the numbers to the internal board? Why have an internal board at all, 2 wires to the solenoid is all that would be needed. If all it took was holding a couple of the wires to a battery on the outside don't you think that would be the way everyone was breaking into them? 2 minute job and no noise.

 

[Jones]

I agree. Or the internal board might be acting as some kind of relay like a headlight relay in a car; delivering more amperage to operate the solenoid than the keypad was capable of handling.
Remember Slim, you're talking to a guy who stopped understanding electronics when they did away with vacuum tubes.

 

[brenbuilds]

Jones : "Don't look at the dogs, work the lock. Work the lock, don't look at the dogs... You looked at the dogs!"

Magnet open sesame.

This trick works on low end safes and electronic gates with a simple solenoid, however most decent safes have a clutch of some sort that must disengage before the shank of the solenoid will move. I believe Bischoff makes Tl-30 jewelry safes that are bit more sophisticated.

It's worth a shot, but I am inclined to leave it to a professional. If there is really no feasible way to get a locksmith to assess this issue; if you simply want to brute force your way in, you will have to attack the sides. The door is often the thickest part and often contains a relocker, if you have a glass pane relocker and it shatters, you've possible made more work for yourself..

 

[slimshady]

Most modern safes actually use a motor to retract a lug to free the mechanism. All in one box that has the electronics, motor, and mechanics and just bolts in. Based on the age of the safe in question it might be either type.

 

[Jones]

Right now a big knife switch on the face of the door would be most welcome.
I hear no whirring of motor or gear train so I'm thinking solenoid.

 

[Jones]

SUCCESS !!! I'm in !

Just to be clear; I've known and dealt with this locksmith for years so it's not like anybody can just walk in to a locksmith shop
with a convincing story and get safecracking tips and instructions.
Even so, I took a selfie of me and the dogs sitting in front of the safe as proof of ownership for his files.

Turns out there are several different lock assemblies and the right one has to be IDed first; all by peering into the 3/8" hole the wiring harness threads into. Once that was determined a hole (different location for each lock assembly - sometimes only fractions away), has to be drilled over the exact spot in order to drill through the solenoid plunger/latch intersect point. Miss that spot and you run the risk of hitting a "glass pane" relocker.
A couple of Cobalt drill bits and some time later, I managed to hit the right spot without doing any additional damage.
Now with the safe contents relocated, the door comes off and gets refitted with a dial combination lock.

 

[cvasqu03]

Great news. I personally prefer the dial, but believe it or not, I did have a problem with the dial on my safe once. A few years after I got it, it became harder and harder to open it with the correct combination. After discussing here, someone told me to try altering one of the numbers by one. I tried and when I dialed the middle number off by one it opened. Then after a few months, it happened again and I altered the middle number by one more and it opened again. It's been years now and I'm still using the new altered combination with no problems. It won't open with the original combination. I have no idea what happened, but I have a working safe so I haven't looked into it any more. And yes, I did print out a card with the new altered combination for my files.

 

[slimshady]

SO did you figure out what failed?

 

[Jones]

Anything mechanical will wear eventually and get sloppy/slightly out of its original settings.
On some things, +/- .0015" doesn't mean .005" either way is close enough.
Problems come in when you don't know or can't see what needs to be repaired.

slim, I'm still not sure of the exact cause. Once we open up the back side of the door,
it may still be hard to tell after my drilling out the lock and whatever damage that may have contributed.
Could be electrical; power not getting through to the solenoid, programming error in interior printed circuit board circa 2003, bats may have chewed through the wiring... ? It may eventually take a forensic locksmith.

 

[Jones]

The safe door is back fom the locksmith and I even managed to get it reinstalled myself, without ending up wearing it.
Tucked away in the closet as the safe is; it was like trying to get a boat anchor out of and back into a well.
Sorry slim, I have yet to get a definite cause as to the keypad failure and my electrical expertise ends at replacing dead batteries with live ones.
Sounds like these electronic locks are designed to be replaced, not repaired.
Fixing solid state anything is as pointless as trying to replace the filament in a burned out light bulb.

Here's what my "factory upgrade" looks like... and it WORKS.

 

[Rob1928]

Sorry I just noticed this, but I had the same happen to me a few years ago. Lots of pricey stuff, transferables, etc stuck inside. Locksmith said ~$500 to open the safe or $700 to open and repair it.

After he got there and looked at it he made me a deal. He said he thought he could get it open if I was willing to gamble 1 hour of his fee ($125) for him to try. Why not?

He had his assistant hit the safe repeatedly with a plastic mallet while he tried the handle after entering the combo. He'd constantly tell the guy faster, over here, etc as he wrenched on it. After about 30 minutes it just opened! I was flabbergasted. The issue was the retaining nut on the inside of the "axle" for the handle had backed off, and yanking the handle at just the right instant the loose parts were randomly jostled back into alignment did the trick.

He checked my other safes and tightened them up too, all for a total of $75!!.

 

[Rob1928]

Just to add to the above, the costs quoted were to drill the safe, or drill and then repair. Also, the nut had not backed entirely off of the axle, just enough to introduce enough play to jam it.

That was my main safe for 10-11 years, so it was getting opened and closed 1-4 times per week on average. I now know that that play is something to check for at least every couple of years to save a huge headache even if I need to pull the door panel! I honestly never ever thought to check on that.

He must have tried at least >100 times but knew what he was doing. Yeah, I tipped him. He knew there was a better way than what I (the customer) was asking for. Much respect!

 

[Jones]

Glad to hear you were successful Rob.
My biggest stumbling block was getting a locksmith to the safe so I was left to do everything myself.
Unlike all the straight mechanical machinery I've run over the years-- with electronic anything, they either work or they don't.
To my rudimentary way of thinking, hitting solid state stuff isn't going to shake loose a log jam of electrons clogging up a wire.
Once I drilled the door at it's sweet-spot and the locksmith and I were able to see inside; we checked, tightened and lubed everything before he installed the dial combination lock.
We tested the printed circuit board just for laughs and the best we could determine was that power was going in when the correct keypad code was entered but nothing was coming out the output connector. One of the IC chips was breaking down.