How does the MAX11/15 and other similar open-bolt 5.56 caliber uppers work?

[AmishEskimoNinja]

Well, not to split hairs, but thats kind of how it functions in a regular closed-bolt AR. The firing pin cannot protrude far enough until the bolt has rotated into battery which is what primarily prevents an OOBD, same as the open-bolt system. Just the pin is attached to the carrier instead of floating.

Sure, but its not how an open-bolt 9mm works. That was basically my point. It doesn't work like the other factory and lage uppers.

 

[DistalRadius]

Sorry, I was trying to respond to this:

...what prevents a cartridge from detonating before the action is locked?

Just to reiterate: the same thing that prevents a cartridge from detonating before the action is locked in a closed bolt AR15, the firing pin cannot protrude far enough until the bolt has rotated into battery.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the question?

 

[mlaboss]

One of the things I love about the MAX-11/15 is that it uses an off-the-shelf bolt and carrier. The rest of the parts are simply bolted on to the carrier and can be swapped onto a new carrier if you want to replace the one that came with the upper.

Assembled:

Disassembled:

The front face of the cylindrical "insert" that gets put into the back of the carrier is what holds the firing pin in the forward position. Since it's not actually permanently attached to anything it's easy to replace if need be.

Ready to install the "insert" now that the bolt and firing pin are in place:

 

[JohnFreeman]

There is also the cost of the patent and product liability insurance.

What?

You mean making custom machine gun conversions requires liability insurance???

 

[Gaujo]

Ok, thank you.

For $3k I guess I was expecting something more complex.

You can buy a SABRE. They were complex if you wanted to clean them, and also really complex if something breaks! That company also went out of business even thought they were also sold at the $2,000 (corrected) price point. Total transparency they were acquired and the product was killed, but it would seem strange for them to kill it if it were profitable. So that provides some support for the price point.

You also have to add to that that this is the only rifle caliber upper available at this time for the MAC family.

 

[A&S Conversions]

You can buy a SABRE. They were complex if you wanted to clean them, and also really complex if something breaks! That company also went out of business even thought they were also sold at the $3,000 price point. Total transparency they were acquired and the product was killed, but it would seem strange for them to kill it if it were profitable. So that provides some support for the price point.

You also have to add to that that this is the only rifle caliber upper available at this time for the MAC family.

To be clear, my purchase of a S.A.B.R.E. upper direct from Alliance Armaments was just over $2,000 delivered. The the basic function of the S.A.B.R.E. and the Max-11/15 are both based on the AR-15/M16 mechanism. The S.A.B.R.E. used a custom long stroke custom made conversion, where the Max-11/15 uses the standard direct impingement system. The S.A.B.R.E. requires a hole in the rear of the RR. The Max-11/15 can use a patented internal recoil system or a similar op rod through the rear of the RR similar to the AA system. AA had a poor execution of the design with an unsustainable price point IMHO. They also dropped the ball with customer service. They brought the AMP series of pistol caliber uppers to market. Claimed that they would make multiple calibers with replaceable magwells for those calibers, then dropped the AMP series in favor of the S.A.B.R.E. between the excessive weight and horrible track record of customer service they went out of business.

Scott

 

[Gaujo]

I could be wrong, I had thought it started at $3k and was dropped to clear out inventory after the sale.

 

[A&S Conversions]

I could be wrong, I had thought it started at $3k and was dropped to clear out inventory after the sale.

No, they started at $1,995.00 and dropped to $1,800, then $1,500. I bought my first M10 in May of 2013 from a close friend. This M10 was an extra for him. He had gotten on the list for the S.A.B.R.E. and gave me his spot in line. AA started producing the S.A.B.R.E. near the end of 2013. The TASK conversion hole was in the same location as the S.A.B.R.E. hole so I had Jim Weaver, the co inventor of the TASK conversion, modify several M10 bolts for the TASK conversion. As I recall at the end of 2014 sales had slowed. The S.A.B.R.E. uppers were extremely heavy (total weight without a mag was 14 lbs) with many custom parts. They had some problems with heat treating of the sear catch towards the end. The Max-/15 should have been what AA should have brought to market. But they didn't. I think if they had fully developed the AMP series of uppers and continued S.A.B.R.E. development to what Richard did with the Max-/15 they could have stayed in business. I don't know why they did what they did.

I think that a contributing factor is the market value of the Mac style family of RRs of the time. The M10 was around $4,500 to $5,500. The M11/NINE was around $5,000 to $6,000 as I recall. It would be hard to swallow an unrelated accessory that would cost more than half the market value of the RR machinegun. I don't think that a buyer could justify a $3,000 accessory if they just spent $4,000 on the transferable machinegun. A transferable FMC was around $8,000 to $9,000. With a M10 around $7,000 and the M11/NINE around $8,000, a $3,000 accessory would be more acceptable. Especially when the FNC would have a market value in the middle teens. The design of the Mac style family of RRs lends itself to conversion. But development of such conversions are expensive. I would think that AA could have come up with a better simpler product, but it seems that they didn't have the capital to finish development. It is hard to strike a balance between development and income. Lower overhead makes that easier. The more that you can do yourself instead of hiring a professional also helps. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Scott

 

[Gaujo]

I stand corrected. Will update post