IMI or Vector Debate

[rumble_rider]

Just wanted to see if we ever had a IMI vs Vector debate and what are your feelings about both types (good and bad).

Is one built better than the other? I heard the Vector has thinner metal...is that true?

All Uzi experts arise!:angel3


Jeff:cool

 

[UZI SBR AWC]

IMI is the original, the rest are just "licensed" copies. I have an original, model "B".

There is nothing wrong with the copies, as long as they are stamped correctly, all critical aligned, and all holes mounting points correct. Hide in a box, fire both in sucession, and ask the bystander which was which. They never know.

Supposedly the Group/Vector frames have a heat treatment to make stronger, do not know if this will really make it better than the IMI, as maybe Group started with a lower grade steel? We'll never know, heat treat may discount this concern.

I read an article or blurb in MGN I think it was where the issue of heat treat was a concern between the IMI SMG and the IMI semis on the market. I wrote Class Three Supply, ad the fella wrote back indicating his inside source at IMI stated that all IMI receivers got the same treatment. I called Stan Andrewski (fun guy to talk to),, he asked how old I was, told him, he said keep shooting, you won't wear it out in your lifetime.

 

[KarlPMann]

I can only speak on one issue in regard to the heat treating of the Group Industries and Vector/GI guns. They did it to keep the bolt from digging that nasty little groove into the receivers that it's so notorious for. I've seen IMI surplus/used and retired receivers sold for parts kits, that have had grooves dug all the way through the rec's. I was told it takes about 250,000 rounds and poor maintanence to get there. My model A has signs of those grooves after about 100,000 rounds. I have never heard of the Vector/GI guns getting that problem, but I don't know anyone that has that many rounds through one of them yet. Personally, IMHO, the heat treating makes the gun better. Karl.

 

[rumble_rider]

IMI/Vector debate

Karl...not fimiliar...what on the bottom of the bolt can dig a groove in the receiver? Does that go for any type of Uzi or just certin models?

Jeff

 

[KarlPMann]

The rails. They dig a groove. SMG, Model A, Model B, Norinco 320, Vector/GI. In other words, all the full size models are susceptible to it, and maybe all period, I don't know. I attached a pic. If you look just forward of the sear holes, on the right side, there is a groove just starting. It comes from the bolt being able to tilt just a little, from fitting in the rec. a little loose. The more loose the bolt, the faster it happens. Karl.

 

[jt325i]

The good news is I think it'll take a lifetime for the average guy to put 200,000 rounds through an Uzi.

 

[Top Cat]

IMI guns are not heat treated

IMI Uzis were built as throw aways. They do not have the heat treated (case hardened) receivers. IMI guns seem to be the standard by which all others are judged. A shame really when you consider they are some of the cosmetically worst, especially the welds. I prefer the South African parts over the IMI, They seem to be better designed and better built. The IMI lowers were built to very loose tolerances and had to be bent at the corners to tighten them up. the South African lowers fit. After several thousands of rounds the IMI lowers get loose again. The South Africans don't seem to have that problem. Most IMI registered "subguns" are not subguns at all, but conversions. These were prettied up and tightened up (if done by a good gunsmith) Which is the reason people think they are such nice guns. Vector guns on the other hand are all assembled as civilian firearms and are meant to look nice. The case hardening is a bonus, the welds are ground and the receivers nicely finished. The military rarely sees a use for cosmetic appeal and in many cases longevity isn't a factor. After all the guy carrying the gun into combat is probably only going to live about 2 days anyway right?

 

[MuzzleFlash]

What Top Cat Says

I couldn't have said it better if I tried. The "IMI is tops" thinking is very likely born of the HK vs HK clone debate. It seems to be generally accepted that HK guns are better built - especially in ways you can't readily see such as metalurgy.

This doesn't appear to be true With the Uzi SMG. Lyttleton (South African) and FN guns are well thought of by the guru's I know. I've heard some very nice Uzi SMGs are being made by the Croats today - sadly, they will never be available to civilians here Norinco is the only clone I've heard bad stories about due to inferior metalurgy.

Since very few transferable IMI SMGs got in under the '68 import ban, unless you're a PD or a (ex)SOT with a sample or a lucky collector, your IMI SMG is a conversion.

The thing I like the most about Vector/GI is that every component was designed and built from the ground up to be FA. Vector guts came from unissued Lyttleton arsenal guns. Because of the Vector's value, it was feasible to heat treat the receiver, hand fit it to the parts and give it a nice park finish instead of the traditional IMI "black Rustoleum".

This isn't a knock on IMI. It's not that IMI couldn't build a beautiful, tight gun, it's that they had no reason to. It's a wonderful application of the KISS principle.

 

[rumble_rider]

IMI Paint

Just for conversation, the paint on the IMI gun was used because it is more corrosion resistant then blued or parked. IMI's are parked and then painted to fully protect the metal in humid climates around the world.

 

[KarlPMann]

I agree with Top Cat and MuzzleFlash on all points, I also agree that the IMI paint job is a nice addition for humid climates. I know their original issue subguns didn't have that finish as it wasn't needed in the desert area they were originally made for. The one thing I do like about having a converted semi is the feed ramp. It helps quite a bit with feeding a wider variety of ammo. Karl.