Important legislation coming up for all class III gun owners

Mike85220

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Two things are going to possibly happen within six months.

First the good news:

Michigan is seriously considering becoming a machinegun state. This will make class III weapons go up in price due to the newly created demand. This is good for class III weapon owners and bad for ones that want to get into a class III weapon.

The bad news (I consider it bad news), that case that went on a few years ago where a guy sold two illegal machineguns at a gunshow and went through the court systems and finally won the case caused some after-shocks.

Some judge named Sam has a hard-on to get rid of the 1986 machine-gun ban. I did not memorize the facts, as I honed in on the fact that it might f''k me over in the long run. This judge only has only one other judge that supports him. All the other judges are against him and his idea. He would still need the senate to vote, the congress to vote and then the nod from the President to repeal this. To go through all of this and turn over a Federal law such as the machine-gun ban, is not very likely.

The truth is I think that Michigan will be a machine-gun state and there is a snow balls chance in hell of the 86 ban being repealed for the reasons I spoke of.

I am pro-gun, but I bought class IIIs for investing. This repeal will f''k me in the a$$, and there goes my retirement. I can't trust in social security, but I did trust that the class III investment was one of the best. I will know real soon, as we all will. So all the people with huge class III collections, your expensive collection will be worth practically 1/15th the value.
 
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Trebor

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Your info is outdated. The Michigan AG opinion that allows citizens to posses non-C&R transferable machineguns is at least a month old. There's some posts about it here.
 

Vegas SMG

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Trebor said:
Your info is outdated. The Michigan AG opinion that allows citizens to posses non-C&R transferable machineguns is at least a month old.
Mike S., AKA Bust Off, put in many, many hours of his personal time and money to effect the changes in state law. It's still being sorted out, but it appears the battle is almost over with BATF ready to admit the AG's decision is lawful and process transfers on non C&R title 2 guns and suppressors. Those guys are happy campers!

While most all machine guns have appreciated rapidly over the last few years, they seem to have slowed down in recent months. I think it unwise to look at them in the same light as other more traditional investments. If you like machineguns and can afford to purchase them with disposable income, then great. Buy and enjoy them as the toys they are. If you're putting all your life savings on something that could blow up, be stolen, damaged by fire, devaluated by a change in the current law, then maybe you're taking too big a risk.

I wouldn't be happy if my transferable's were worth a fraction of what I paid for them, but if I could buy cheap new ones, them YES, I'd be all for losing money to be able to own cheap new machineguns. I bought my guns to shoot and enjoy, and hope that I can get what I paid for them when I sell them. If I can make a little more than that and have played with them for several years, well that's even sweeter.

HOWEVER, I'm not betting my retirement on that roll of the dice. I wouldn't put all my retirement or investment money in any single vehicle, but that's me. I may have too much invested in real estate and that bubble can burst at any moment. The difference is I can't see land being outlawed, and real estate will eventually cycle back up as a necessary commodity provided you purchase the right parcels. I don't personally see any changes on the NFA horizon, but you never know.

If you insist on "investing" in machine guns, most agree that C&R guns will retain much of their value if "new" ones are allowed to be made. Buy them because you like them and can afford them, not because you'll get rich.
 

Vegas SMG

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Mike85220 said:
If it is a month old, then why on Sturmgewehr is it the newest post?
They're always a month behind and you didn't completely read all the posts. You asked for it, here it is dated 1-3-06.


STATE OF MICHIGAN

MIKE COX, ATTORNEY GENERAL

FIREARMS:

MICHIGAN PENAL CODE:

Possession and transfer of a machine gun

A person in Michigan may only possess a machine gun if it was lawfully possessed before May 19, 1986, and is properly registered under federal law. A person in Michigan may only transfer possession of a machine gun if authorized to do so by the federal Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Opinion No. 7183

December 27, 2005

Honorable Leon Drolet
State Representative
The Capitol
Lansing, Michigan 48909

You have asked whether a person[1] in Michigan may transfer possession of a federally registered machine gun.

Possession of a machine gun by a person in Michigan is controlled by section 224 of the Michigan Penal Code, MCL 750.224:

(1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess any of the following:

(a) A machine gun or firearm that shoots or is designed to shoot automatically more than 1 shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

* * *

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

(a) A self-defense spray device as defined in section 224d.

(b) A person manufacturing firearms, explosives, or munitions of war by virtue of a contract with a department of the government of the United States.

(c) A person licensed by the secretary of the treasury of the United States or the secretary's delegate[[2]] to manufacture, sell, or possess a machine gun, or a device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance described in subsection (1). [Emphasis added.]

Of greatest relevance to your question is the exception stated in subsection 3(c) above. Michigan law, therefore, prohibits the possession of a machine gun by a person unless that person has been "licensed" by the United States Government to manufacture, sell, or possess the weapon.

To determine how one becomes "licensed" by the federal government, the governing provision is subsection (o) of section 922 of the federal Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986 (FOPA), 18 USC 922(o). That subsection states in relevant part:

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun.

(2) This subsection does not apply with respect to--

* * *

(B) any lawful transfer or lawful possession of a machinegun that was lawfully possessed before the date this subsection takes effect [effective May 19, 1986]. [18 USC 922(o)(1) and (2)(B).]

After enactment of the FOPA, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives promulgated implementing regulations permitting private ownership of a machine gun under specified circumstances. One of those regulations, 27 CFR 479.105, provides:

(a) General. As provided by 26 U.S.C. 5812 and 26 U.S.C. 5822, an application to make or transfer a firearm shall be denied if the making, transfer, receipt, or possession of the firearm would place the maker or transferee in violation of
law. . . .

(b) Machine guns lawfully possessed prior to May 19, 1986. A machine gun possessed in compliance with the provisions of this part prior to May 19, 1986, may continue to be lawfully possessed by the person to whom the machine gun is registered and may, upon compliance with the provisions of this part, be lawfully transferred to and possessed by the transferee.

Thus, under federal law, a person may possess a machine gun if that person lawfully possessed it before May 19, 1986, or if the person is one to whom a person in lawful possession lawfully transferred possession after that date. Another regulation, 27 CFR 479.84, generally prohibits the transfer of a firearm "unless an application, Form 4 (Firearms), Application for Transfer and Registration of Firearm, in duplicate, executed under the penalties of perjury to transfer the firearm and register it to the transferee has been filed with and approved by the Director [of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives]." The regulation further requires that the application provide a complete description of the firearm and detailed identification of both parties to the transfer. Under the current Form 4 (copy attached), the transferee is required to certify whether the transferee has been convicted of or is facing criminal felony charges, whether the transferee is a fugitive, illegal alien, addicted to controlled substances, subject to a domestic relations restraining order, has received a military dishonorable discharge, has been adjudicated mentally defective, or has been convicted of domestic violence. An affirmative answer to any of these questions results in a denial of the application. Another regulation, 27 CFR 479.85, requires that the application include the transferee's photograph and set of fingerprints. The application must also be certified by the appropriate state or local law enforcement official as to whether the official has any information indicating that the machine gun will be used for other than a lawful purpose or that possession of the gun by the transferee would be in violation of state or federal law. 27 CFR 479.85. The Form 4 application is then reviewed by the Director and, if approved, is returned to the transferor who may then transfer the weapon. The transferee is required to retain the approved Form 4 application as proof that the firearm is properly registered. 27 CFR 479.86.

In light of this federal regulatory background, it must next be determined whether this federal approval process culminates in the issuance of a "license" for purposes of the exception to the prohibition on the possession of a machine gun found in MCL 750.224.

The foremost rule in construing a statute is to discern and give effect to the intent of the Legislature. Nastal v Henderson & Associates Investigations, Inc, 471 Mich 712, 720; 691 NW2d 1 (2005). The first step in ascertaining that intent is to review the language of the statute. The plain meaning of the critical word itself as well as its placement and purpose in the statutory scheme must be considered. Sun Valley Foods Co v Ward, 460 Mich 230, 236-237; 596 NW2d 119 (1999).

The concept of licensure was discussed in Bostrom v Jennings, 326 Mich 146, 167; 40 NW2d 97 (1949) (Boyles, J. concurring):

[A] license means "to confer on a person the right to do something which otherwise he would not have the right to do." 33 Am Jur, "Licenses," § 2, p 325.

"The object of a license is to confer a right that does not exist without a license." Chilvers v. People, 11 Mich 43, 49.

"The popular understanding of the word license undoubtedly is, a permission to do something which without the license would not be allowable. . . ." Youngblood v. Sexton, 32 Mich 406, 419 (20 Am Rep 654).

The general understanding of a license is stated in Webster's New International Dictionary (2d ed), p 1425, as follows:

"License, license, n * * * Authority or liberty given to do or forebear any act; permission to do something.

Although the application and registration scheme provided for under the federal laws and regulations discussed above do not result in the issuance of a document labeled "license,"[3] the Form 4 application and resulting approval process bears all the hallmarks of licensure. The permission granted by the Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to transfer and possess a machine gun is the official authority required in order to avoid the federal proscription. Absent such approval, a person possessing a machine gun would be subject to serious sanctions, including prosecution and incarceration under both federal and state law. See 18 USC 924 and MCL 750.224(2).

Moreover, there is no indication in the plain text of MCL 750.224 that the Legislature intended the word "license" to have a meaning other than its ordinary meaning as described by the Court in Bostrom. Its purpose in the statutory scheme appears to be to assure that only those persons receiving the proper authorization from the appropriate federal officials are allowed to manufacture, sell, or possess a machine gun. The statute does not focus on the particular title or name given to that authorizing instrument. Accordingly, the authorization provided under the federal regulatory scheme embodied in 18 USC 922(o) and related regulations constitutes a "license" within the meaning of MCL 750.224.[4]

It is my opinion, therefore, that a person in Michigan may only possess a machine gun if it was lawfully possessed before May 19, 1986, and is properly registered under federal law. A person in Michigan may only transfer possession of a machine gun if authorized to do so by the federal Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

MIKE COX
Attorney General

[1] Because your request only concerns private individuals, this opinion does not address any other classes of persons, such as law enforcement officers and military personnel.

[2] The historical responsibility of the Secretary of Treasury of the United States to regulate firearms through the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives was transferred by Congress to the United States Attorney General by Public Law No 107-296, Title XI, Subtitle B, § 1112(f)(4), (6), 116 Stat 2276 (2002).

[3] Compare 18 USC 923 (providing for the licensure of manufacturers, importers, dealers, and collectors).

[4] OAG, 1977-1978, No 5210, p 189 (August 10, 1977), reached the opposite conclusion on this question. However, at the time that opinion was issued, MCL 750.224 allowed a person to possess a machine gun if the person was "duly licensed to manufacture, sell, or possess any machine gun." As that opinion noted, when MCL 750.224 was amended in 1959, the Legislature considered a companion bill to license the possession of machine guns. The opinion concluded that the failure to enact the bill was evidence that no law existed to allow for the possession of a machine gun. The opinion further noted that then existing federal law only provided for the registration and not the licensing of machine guns. As discussed above, Congress subsequently enacted legislation authorizing the Director of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to formally approve the possession of certain machine guns. Moreover, soon after the issuance of OAG No 5210, the Legislature amended MCL 750.224 by 1978 PA 564 to specifically recognize an exception for a license issued by the United States Government. The Attorney General was also quick to recognize that with the amendment, the machine gun prohibition in MCL 750.224 did not apply to a person duly licensed by the Secretary of Treasury of the United States or the Secretary's delegate to possess a machine gun. Letter opinion of the Attorney General to Phillip Price, Chief, National Firearms Act Branch, United States Department of Treasury, dated April 25, 1979. Accordingly, OAG No 5210 is superseded by this opinion.

Att.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10259.htm
State of Michigan, Department of Attorney General
Last Updated 01/03/2006 19:26:01


http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10259.htm
 

OkcPuckfan

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While I sympathise with the loss of "value" of your collection, I can only recommend that you sell your Title II stuff and invest in something with a little more stable return, like tulip bulbs or Beanie Babies.

One stroke of the pen and your collection is worthless, or worse, becomes a tool to try to take back the rights that were paid for in blood a couple of hundred years ago.

Seriously, if I could purchase an M16 or an Uzi at the prices their semi auto counterparts bring, I would gladly give up the monetary "value" of my meager collection. It is not about the investment, it is about your rights!

'Puckfan
 

grassyknoll

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I have a substantial investment in my collection, but I would gladly lose every penny of it to get the 86 law repealed.
 

CIB

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Hawksnest said:
I bought mine to shoot!

Hell yeah! If you want a retirement investment, I would recommend a good Mutual Fund/IRA. I have "NEVER" heard anyone in the CIII community recommend title II firearms as an investment. The only way that I would ever look at MG's as an investment would be as "high risk", not what most retirement planners would recommend in that catagory.
I would also concur with others here, I would gladly lose all that money I have tied up in title II stuff in order to buy new MG's for 1K each!
 

Cortland

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I am pro-gun, but I bought class IIIs for investing. This repeal will f''k me in the a$$, and there goes my retirement. I can't trust in social security, but I did trust that the class III investment was one of the best. I will know real soon, as we all will. So all the people with huge class III collections, your expensive collection will be worth practically 1/15th the value.
Wow, I'm struggling to choke back the tears here. If it's all as bad as you say, and if I had any say in it, I'd suggest you invest in this:
vaseline%20jar.gif


Seriously though, if all you care about is maximizing your investments maybe you should sell out now while the prices are still high.
 

PMDW

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I am pro-gun, but I bought class IIIs for investing. This repeal will f''k me in the a$$, and there goes my retirement. I can't trust in social security, but I did trust that the class III investment was one of the best. I will know real soon, as we all will. So all the people with huge class III collections, your expensive collection will be worth practically 1/15th the value.

But I'll be able to buy an M249! It's worth the trade off.
 

cvasqu03

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We'd also be able to buy fully functional full auto P90's.

Hmm time to build a full size replica of the stargate!
(yes, I'm a huge nerd).
 

ColGlock

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cvasqu03 said:
We'd also be able to buy fully functional full auto P90's.

Hmm time to build a full size replica of the stargate!
(yes, I'm a huge nerd).


Evidently you are not a big enough nred to have watched friday's epoisode...

They have switched to the HK PDW (P7?) and the G36.
 

Polar bear food

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Machineguns for investment? That's a good yarn to spin on the wife when she asks why you're buying another one but they aren't good investments. You may see a short-term profit, but I don't see MG's rising as consistently as a long-term balanced portfolio will. A $5,000 gun today may be worth $10k or $15k in 20 years but that same $5k in the market at a good rate will likely go farther plus you can usually avoid the tax bite that you'll pay on selling IF you're actually treating your guns as investments and declaring the capital gain.

And I agree with those who cite rtisk too. Not only can your guns be stolen or damaged/destroyed, but it would only take an act of congress to declare them contraband and then you'd have to dispose of them or surrender them for whatever compensation the government was deemed fair and reasonable.
 

AK43

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I myself have a good bit of money tied up in my transferables and surely hope that the law stays as is.It would be nice to go down to your local class 3 gunshop and buy a H&K 36 for say $1800.00 and go shoot but i don't want to lose my hard earned money that i paid for my machine guns. that is my 2 cents worth. AK43
 

Open Bolts

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I bought two transferables in 2005 (not counting a suppressor) and I'd STILL rather see them rendered 1/10th value at the advantage of being able to get cheap, new toys. I'm in it for the love of guns; if they appreciate that's icing.

I also agree with the sentiment that MGs for retirement is waaaay to risky. Heck, in addition to the reasons above, what if the gov said you can never transfer them again except form 5s (heirs)? I could see that happening-just a frozen ownership, no confiscation involved. I do see my MGs as an investment but only partially, secondary to toy-status - a high-risk investment and one not central to retirement.

Imagine all the kits that are currently hoarded in the US. Imagine a repeal of the 86 ban. There would be a flood of guns like Swedish Ks, PPshs, MG-34s etc... Man oh man, it'd be what I imagine 1985 was to the machine gun enthusiast: affordable to the everyman. Don't forget too that C&Rs would still be C&Rs. An original versus tube/new sideplate would still fetch high $$$, but of course, those would drop too considerably. I could see original WWI and WWII vintage guns being expensive, but not the price of a luxury auto as they are now.

Anyway, that's my two cents as an invested owner and machine gun enthusiast.
 

prebans

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I'll gladly take a loss on my Uzi in order to repeal the ban. This isn't about investing- this is about our rights.

My advice is to sell your "investments" asap. Seriously. Ever consider what could happen if Hillary wins in '08? We could go to a Canadian machinegun situation; you get to keep your guns but they can NEVER be sold to a non-pre-existing MG owner and could not be willed down to your kids/spouse/etc.

FYI,

Mike
 

drdremel

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Michigan is not considering becoming an NFA friendly state. They were an NFA friendly state. Then an attorney general changed that with an official opinion. Now the current AG has overruled that and clarified that it is legal. The only thing we are waiting for is ATF is not used to having rules changed that they did not initiate. As soon as they confirm that it is true and change their policy, those of us that sent in out transfers will complete them. The item that needs to be clarrified is silencers. The opinion letter did not specifically mention them but the law it refences is in relation to both machineguns and silencers. Since the Form 4 is a license for one, it is a license for another.
 

carcass

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I, too, would dump my NFA "investment" down the toilet if it meant the '86 ban would be repealed and I could buy or build whatever I wanted again.
 
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