Is New Technology Like Forced Reset Triggers Or Super Safety Going To Reduce The Viability Of Multiple Thousand Dollar Accessories

[techspy]

Well I can honestly say that the advent of FRT's and SS's (and the recent court cases upholding them) is having an effect on me and how I view/use my M10. I have an AR in 7.62x39, one in 5.56, one in 9mm, one reverse stretch MP5 clone and one Mp5SD clone all running flawlessly with a SS. There are SS's on the horizon for AKs and AUGs. I saw the new Lage Versas and emailed asking to be put on the preorder list. But it is just not as high of a priority now. I have the 10-15 where I can run 5.56 and 762x39 and I have the MAX 10. I love them both but don't take either out as much. The additional hassle of having to swap uppers and the difference of an open bolt operation just aren't as appealing now that I have other options. Especially when I have about the same cost in my ks47 with supressor and form 1 SBR for the same cost as the new upper.

Nothing against Lage and the great innovation they bring and I understand the allure of a "real" select fire. These just scratch the itch for my range fun. Especially when they are some unique/historical platforms. Just speaking about my recent views.

 

[A&S Conversions]

There have been several systems that mimic full auto fire. If your Super Safety scratches that itch, that is great. But I doubt that such devices will have any real impact on the market value of actual transferable registered machine guns. I think so because if all you want to do is dump mags, such devices will do that. There has been a difference for me between such devices and my machine guns. If in a stressful situation, which for me would be in a competitive situation (I have never been in combat and don’t want to be), that extra brain power to operate the device, limiting my brain power to figure out the best way to neutralize the bad guys and not harm the no shoots to get the best score that I can.

Like buying a watch with a Rolex plate covering the Timex logo. Let’s face it, an actual transferable doesn’t so much have mechanical value as the paperwork that the transferable can fire more than one shot per function of the trigger, has that market value. If you have any transferables, that’s great that you have it. But there are very different demographics looking to purchase each option. So far the simulated full auto devices have had no real effect on transferable prices. Personally, I don’t think that simulated full auto devices will ever really have an effect on actual transferable market values, just as Timex watches will never really have an effect on market values of Rolex watches. The shape of the economy will have much more of an impact of transferable market values than the simulated full auto devices. YMMV.

Scott

 

[techspy]

Yep I agree with your sentiment. One thing though, SS and FRTs are quite a bit different than the other tech that has come out like Slidefire stocks and binaries. I previously had FA ARs and MP5s in previous jobs and functionally, other than push button as opposed to a 3 position rotary selector (which is being worked on) they operate essentially the same as far as reliability, accuracy and ROF. But agreed, I am not going into battle etc and it is for fun at the range but not necessarily just mag dumping. I prefer actual tactical, move shoot training scenarios.

 

[Alaska_Shooter]

The demographics aren’t necessarily different.

Other than the safety/selector operating differently I haven’t met anyone yet who could shoot a SS and M16 back to back and tell which was which from their performance

 

[techspy]

I think the main demograhic difference is the people with enough disposable income that see it as an investment and the authenticity factor.

 

[Alaska_Shooter]

True.

The wonderful thing is how many tens of thousands (?) of new devices and shooters are becoming interested in fast fire. It gives me hope for significant positive change with MG laws

And yes I’d happily lose a crazy amount of ”investment” money

ETA: There’s also no way I’m buying any more transferables

 

[Deerhurst]

There have been several systems that mimic full auto fire. If your Super Safety scratches that itch, that is great. But I doubt that such devices will have any real impact on the market value of actual transferable registered machine guns. I think so because if all you want to do is dump mags, such devices will do that. There has been a difference for me between such devices and my machine guns. If in a stressful situation, which for me would be in a competitive situation (I have never been in combat and don’t want to be), that extra brain power to operate the device, limiting my brain power to figure out the best way to neutralize the bad guys and not harm the no shoots to get the best score that I can.

Like buying a watch with a Rolex plate covering the Timex logo. Let’s face it, an actual transferable doesn’t so much have mechanical value as the paperwork that the transferable can fire more than one shot per function of the trigger, has that market value. If you have any transferables, that’s great that you have it. But there are very different demographics looking to purchase each option. So far the simulated full auto devices have had no real effect on transferable prices. Personally, I don’t think that simulated full auto devices will ever really have an effect on actual transferable market values, just as Timex watches will never really have an effect on market values of Rolex watches. The shape of the economy will have much more of an impact of transferable market values than the simulated full auto devices. YMMV.

Scott

I think you are over thinking it.


Something like a SS or FRT will do almost exactly what an auto sear will do as far as ROF and rounds on target. I have really been impressed by my SS. It's easy to run as long as you don't have a death grip on the trigger and is just as controllable as FA. The best part is it was $70 and not $25,000+! You press the trigger to let it eat and release to stop it. It feels different due to the forced reset so you feel every time the hammer comes back but it isn't trigger slap or anything violent or uncomfortable. there is no cycling or rhythm or whatever like a binary.


I would gladly see my MG drop to scrap metal values if I could cheaply and easily buy more.

 

[ericthered]

Both the SS and FRT are in a completely different category then bump stocks, binary, and the hell thing (can't remember its name). I have a FRT and a SS, the SS is in a different category then the FRT. The FRT you feel the trigger more, the design is less efficient, its not as reliable, and it doesnt have 3 positions (I think there may have been a brand that did?).
I do still plan on eventually getting a FA Uzi, but the SS has pretty much for "poor people" practically replaced the need for FA. I still would like to see fa matches include SS/FRT. If nothing else, just to compare the two methods from a practical standpoint.

 

[strobro32]

True that /\

 

[Slowmo]

There have been several systems that mimic full auto fire. If your Super Safety scratches that itch, that is great. But I doubt that such devices will have any real impact on the market value of actual transferable registered machine guns. I think so because if all you want to do is dump mags, such devices will do that. There has been a difference for me between such devices and my machine guns. If in a stressful situation, which for me would be in a competitive situation (I have never been in combat and don’t want to be), that extra brain power to operate the device, limiting my brain power to figure out the best way to neutralize the bad guys and not harm the no shoots to get the best score that I can.

Like buying a watch with a Rolex plate covering the Timex logo. Let’s face it, an actual transferable doesn’t so much have mechanical value as the paperwork that the transferable can fire more than one shot per function of the trigger, has that market value. If you have any transferables, that’s great that you have it. But there are very different demographics looking to purchase each option. So far the simulated full auto devices have had no real effect on transferable prices. Personally, I don’t think that simulated full auto devices will ever really have an effect on actual transferable market values, just as Timex watches will never really have an effect on market values of Rolex watches. The shape of the economy will have much more of an impact of transferable market values than the simulated full auto devices. YMMV.

Scott

I’m not sure I’d agree it is different demographics. Maybe for white-glove collectors, but certainly not for shooters. I can’t imagine many MG enthusiasts will turn up their nose at the chance to grab NFA grail guns for a fraction of the price just because the trigger jiggles a little. Hell, even if I had an M16 or MP5, it would be hard to justify putting the wear-and-tear on my NFA gun if I had a more or less disposable near-equivalent.

 

[Deerhurst]

Both the SS and FRT are in a completely different category then bump stocks, binary, and the hell thing (can't remember its name). I have a FRT and a SS, the SS is in a different category then the FRT. The FRT you feel the trigger more, the design is less efficient, its not as reliable, and it doesnt have 3 positions (I think there may have been a brand that did?).
I do still plan on eventually getting a FA Uzi, but the SS has pretty much for "poor people" practically replaced the need for FA. I still would like to see fa matches include SS/FRT. If nothing else, just to compare the two methods from a practical standpoint.

FRT stands for Forced Reset Trigger which both are.

Rare Breed just uses FRT as the name of theirs. Hoffman calls theirs the Super Safety.


I say this just to try to reduce confusion with readers.


Both options are head and shoulders above binaries and bump fire.

 

[skoda]

I’m not sure I’d agree it is different demographics. Maybe for white-glove collectors, but certainly not for shooters. I can’t imagine many MG enthusiasts will turn up their nose at the chance to grab NFA grail guns for a fraction of the price just because the trigger jiggles a little. Hell, even if I had an M16 or MP5, it would be hard to justify putting the wear-and-tear on my NFA gun if I had a more or less disposable near-equivalent.

I agree. With the price of most MGs I'm sure that a lot of shooters, even affluent ones, are holding back on shooting them to some extent. Even if you don't care about wear to the finish there is the chance that some irreplaceable part will break and then you have a non-functioning firearm. That's a bummer even for a rich collector like having a Ferrari with a blown engine. Much better to grab a $500-2000 semi with an FRT type trigger and go nuts with it. More laughs and less stress.

 

[A&S Conversions]

It's easy to run as long as you don't have a death grip on the trigger and is just as controllable as FA. The best part is it was $70 and not $25,000+! You press the trigger to let it eat and release to stop it. It feels different due to the forced reset so you feel every time the hammer comes back…

This is my point. Granted for most the difference is semantics. Recently, the status of some Pre May Samples was changed to transferable. So a couple thousand machine guns were added to the registry. Those guns didn’t drop prices of the transferables, they actually sold for more because they were factory guns instead of conversions.

By the same token, look at unregistered Glock switches. If these and such conversion devices become more involved in high body count events, Congress will be pressured into action. I think that Congress would not be inclined to include transferrables because cause of the big money involved.

Will Super Safeties and FRTs effect transferable market values? I don’t think so. We can certainly have differing opinions. Time will tell. YMMV.

Scott

 

[techspy]

I get your point but it is such an individual decesion/view it will be tough to validate. For example, my money is not going towards a transferable or accessories for my transferable. Will my single decesion move the market? No. But it is $1200 less dollars available for an accessory I would have 100% bought from Lage.

 

[Slowmo]

This is my point. Granted for most the difference is semantics. Recently, the status of some Pre May Samples was changed to transferable. So a couple thousand machine guns were added to the registry. Those guns didn’t drop prices of the transferables, they actually sold for more because they were factory guns instead of conversions.

By the same token, look at unregistered Glock switches. If these and such conversion devices become more involved in high body count events, Congress will be pressured into action. I think that Congress would not be inclined to include transferrables because cause of the big money involved.

Will Super Safeties and FRTs effect transferable market values? I don’t think so. We can certainly have differing opinions. Time will tell. YMMV.

Scott

I don’t think the market effect of adding a couple thousand expensive transferables is predictive of adding an endless supply of cheap near-equivalent substitutes. Especially when those substitutes include the AR platform - the veritable Erector set of the gun world. Suddenly people will be able to build just about whatever they want for $1-3k.

 

[Deerhurst]

I don’t think the market effect of adding a couple thousand expensive transferables is predictive of adding an endless supply of cheap near-equivalent substitutes. Especially when those substitutes include the AR platform - the veritable Erector set of the gun world. Suddenly people will be able to build just about whatever they want for $1-3k.

This is where I'm at. $500PSA with a $70 trigger is 90% of FA. Will pull buyers. I really wanted a transferrable. If I had just wanted to disassemble ammo I would go with a SS (which wasn't a thing at the time I bought my M10). It's way cheaper, basically disposable and no extra paperwork or dumbness.

 

[A&S Conversions]

I heard this same kind of thing when the other devices listed came out. If the newest devices scratch that itch, good for you.

How many shooters do you think would like to have a machine that can afford to feed it? I would think that the number would be in the tens of thousands or maybe in the hundreds of thousands. Many of this group of tens of thousands in one of these conversions.

How many transferables come up for sale per month? I bet the total is around 100, if that? It is my understanding that there is 177,000 transferables. So how many can afford transferables? That would still be thousands of possible buyers.

So to me, these are two different items that fit a similar role. But the market value is very different. So very different buyers for each item. Would these full auto mimicking devices affect transferrable market value? The numbers don’t add up for me. That doesn’t mean that some possible transferrable buyers won’t switch to the lower market value items.

Scott

 

[SecondAmend]

I heard this same kind of thing when the other devices listed came out. If the newest devices scratch that itch, good for you.

How many shooters do you think would like to have a machine that can afford to feed it? I would think that the number would be in the tens of thousands or maybe in the hundreds of thousands. Many of this group of tens of thousands in one of these conversions.

How many transferables come up for sale per month? I bet the total is around 100, if that? It is my understanding that there is 177,000 transferables. So how many can afford transferables? That would still be thousands of possible buyers.

So to me, these are two different items that fit a similar role. But the market value is very different. So very different buyers for each item. Would these full auto mimicking devices affect transferrable market value? The numbers don’t add up for me. That doesn’t mean that some possible transferrable buyers won’t switch to the lower market value items.

Scott

I pretty much agree. The only reason I can personally see for me to get an SS would be to turn my AR pistol lower (registered with the state as such from how a new, stripped AR lower was assembled) into a .22LR buzz gun, range toy when I have the 4.5 in. bbl. dedicated .22LR upper installed. And at this point in time, I don't have much of a desire to even do that.

MHO, YMMV, etc.

 

[Alaska_Shooter]

To say that they’re different buyers is not correct. There’s overlap. How much SS/FRT will impact the market or potential legislation won’t be known for a while.

In my local NFA club and even in this thread there are MG owners (like me) that are having a great time with the SS. It’s 100% a replacement for my M16. The M16 never comes out of the safe anymore.

To call them a gimmick or mimic just means someone hasn’t actually shot a SS yet.

For instance: I’m super excited about a 12G Mac upper. These kind of Mac uppers are kuldgy, bulky, and akward compared to dedicated guns. If that’s the only fast fire 12G I can get then I’ll buy one. If I can get a SS 12G shotgun then I’d no longer be a buyer of a Mac upper.

 

[A&S Conversions]

So why haven’t you sold your M16 and roll the money into different Super Safeties with host guns? If they plan to do AK Super Safeties, find a converted Saiga 12 and some 30 round drums. Better do it soon before the bottom drops out of the M16 market (he says sarcastically).

Look, I mean no disrespect. Your collection, your choice. I sold my Fleming HK sear in 2020 for just shy of $30,000. What is the current market value of a HK sear? I paid $11,500 in 2007. That transaction plus the sale of my Colt M16 has more than paid for all of the ammunition I have ever shot and paid for my DIAS. So I am going to hang onto that.

Scott