Is this a good buy?

[TrippHammer]

This has become a very interesting thread indeed.

I dragged Richard into this as an example of "Nessecity is the mother of invention" type of platform. I apologize to you Richard, its not my intention to bring your name into a hypothetical & argumentative post.

However, I don't think any of these guy's (Lakeside, Lage, Stoney Creek, etc, etc) would be making these great uppers unless the price of machine guns where where they are today. This is my opinion.

I have said this before and I have no problem saying this.
"I don't believe everyone should own a machine gun"!
Thats not saying anything about your rights to own one!

Every generation is different. The long and short of it, in my opinion if machine guns where priced at what they are actually worth we probably would have lost our rights to own them by now!
(Kids today don't give a shit about anything long term)

Here's my thoughts and again just my own opinions here.
(I hope this doesn't come out sounding Zumbobian...eeecks!)

The current prices on transferable machine guns has placed them out of the budget of the average Joe.

I don't think there are too many people (with a combined anual household income of less than $50,000) that have the disposable income to purchase a $10,000-$15,000 weapon or even a $3,000 purchase. This has arguably made it a hobby for individuals who have disposable income.

The last time I watched the News on TV (I have no statistics to back my opinion) most criminal activity involving guns seems to be committed by gangs or is gang violence.

Inexpensive machine guns flooding the market would give the Politicians the gasoline they have alway's wanted to throw on the fire.

I heard some one say that nobody has ever committed a crime w/ a legally transferable machine gun. Do back ground checks really work that well?
I don't think so.

My simple opinion is that social economic status has a lot to do w/ crime and the high prices on registered machine guns thankfully keeps them out of reach of criminals. (at least the registered ones)

I'm not happy about what happened in 1986. There are a lot of good guy's that can't afford to own machine guns because our Politicians traded away our Constitutional Rights!

I still think its a great time for the NFA community! :bow

There are more options available today for almost every weapon, more jobs have been created, forums like UZI Talk and AR-15.com make information readily available. There's literally an entire cottage industry created to help support machine gun owners and these people are making an honest living at it.

I'm by no means even close to being an "elitist" I pay my taxes and work my tail off to pay the bills. My wife and I are lucky enough to own our own business and we try and help people as much as we can. I'm lucky to have the resources and disposable income to purchase "Big Boy Toy's".

I have witnessed horrible gun etiquette at machinegun shoots that prove to me that some people should never own guns! I would agree that in many instances a training course for first timers should be a pre-requisite to machinegun ownership.

By and large I think our community police's itself and I think most guy's in the business are gentlemen. (I have run into a couple of bad apples)olice

I can understand the anger over the high prices of transferable machine guns, but in my opinion this is all relative to your own point of view.

Yes, we are very lucky to have the Right to own machine guns! Just ask our neighbors to the North how much it sucks to be them!

Its an awesome time to be involved in the Class III community.:allright

 

[Broke]

I don't think there are too many people (with a combined anual household income of less than $50,000) that have the disposable income to purchase a $10,000-$15,000 weapon or even a $3,000 purchase.

Whoo Hoo! I'm a minority:cool

Well under $50K a year here for the wifey and I, made my first NFA purchase a couple years ago for a $1K+ integral pistol, then last year $4K+ for a M10/45 package, this year for another $1K+ integral (which might have been another FA, had I not bought the wife an Oyster Perpetual).

Even us po' folk can get them, but you've got to like Ramen Noodles, you've got to be handy with a wrench and you really have to budget the money. Vacations spent travelling around have to be sacrificed for something more tangible if that is really what you want.
Trip to Hawaii for memories, or a submachine gun? I've only eaten Dole pineapple in a cup from Krogers.... but I have a MAC in the safe:bow

 

[garandman]

Inexpensive machine guns flooding the market would give the Politicians the gasoline they have alway's wanted to throw on the fire.

WHO CARES if liberal politicians think they have gasoline to throw on the fire?

They already think they've got gasoline enuf for the fire with semi auto assault rifles.

Liberty should NEVER be contingent on the Marxist, fallacious, freedom hating arguments of liberal politicians.

NEVER.

 

[garandman]

The current prices on transferable machine guns has placed them out of the budget of the average Joe.

My simple opinion is that social economic status has a lot to do w/ crime and the high prices on registered machine guns thankfully keeps them out of reach of criminals. (at least the registered ones)



Inexpensive machine guns flooding the market would give the Politicians the gasoline they have alway's wanted to throw on the fire.

DO you hear yourself?

Lemme boil down what you are saying.

"People of lower economic status commit crime. If these people had machine guns, the gov't would ban them. So fortunately, gov't tyranny has raised the prices so that I can make a business oif selling overpriced firearms to rich people, the Constitution be damned."


I know you'll claim that's not what you are wanting to say, but that's what you just said.

And in MY opinion, THIS attitude is the problem with the opportunistic, investor class, commodities dealer who starts selling guns. For them (you, perhaps?) its all about profit, and little about freedom.

THAT attitude is all about whatever legal structure makes them an almighty buck. NOT that I'm against people making huge profits. I'm very much for profits (even those by <gasp> "big oil." )But when anyone making their profits makes them comfortable with laws that violate Constitutional freedom.....THAT I have a HUGE problem with.

Maybe that's not you. I hope its not, Buts its the way it looks to me.

 

[creophus]

ummm...excuse me....I have another gun related question.

What type of magazine well do I need to run the Lage upper reliably?

I'm seeing alot of talk about "sten" magazines. I don't know what those are, but I assume the MAC has been modified to take a cheaper magazine?

 

[garandman]

ummm...excuse me....I have another gun related question.

What type of magazine well do I need to run the Lage upper reliably?

I'm seeing alot of talk about "sten" magazines. I don't know what those are, but I assume the MAC has been modified to take a cheaper magazine?

Recon Ordnance has the best mags. They ain't cheap ($30 ea) but they are good.

The plastic Zytels sometimes work, and can be made more reliable with Lage's feed lips mag inserts.

 

[creophus]

So, what about the Sten mags? Does this work with the Lage upper? Are there any that won't work with the upper?

 

[Vegas SMG]

Your gun must undergo a Sten magwell change in order to use Sten mags. Your factory magwell/grip is cut off and a new Sten magwell/grip is welded onto the lower.

At that point, you won't be able to use the factory Zytel mags or the converted metal Argentine PAM-2 mags that Recon Ordnance sells. You're limited to using Sten mags. The mags are currently running about six bucks each, but you need to factor in the cost of the magwell conversion and how many mags you'll want to see if it's cost effective for you.

Yes, you can run the Lage MAX-11 upper with a Sten magwell conversion and Sten mags.

 

[AZ Doug]

So, what about the Sten mags? Does this work with the Lage upper? Are there any that won't work with the upper?

The short answer is yes they will work in the Lage Max-11 9mm upper.

Now for a longer answer: The Mag-well/pistol grip portion of the Mac must be replaced in order to accept Sten mags. Yes, Sten mags are less expensive than the mags that fit the M-11 in stock configuration. I understand it is hit and miss whether the individual Sten mags work or not. From what I have read some do, some don't. Most people don't seem to care because you buy them so cheap that you dispose of the ones that don't work. Somewhere in one of these recent threads someone pointed out that the Lage .22 conversion kit will not immediately be, if ever, built for the Sten converted Macs. For me, the availability if a .22 conversion kit is reason enough to stay with the factory configuration and avoid a Sten conversion.

Sorry for the hi-jacked thread, but I am about to do it again.

...However, I don't think any of these guy's (Lakeside, Lage, Stoney Creek, etc, etc) would be making these great uppers unless the price of machine guns where where they are today. This is my opinion....

I can't agree for a few reasons:

1. If machine guns were cheaper then that would most likely mean we did not have a ban. In that case the companies you mentioned, and others, would probably manufacture machine guns of their own design instead of compromising by designing uppers to work on an existing platform. If that were the case then we would be buying a better product for our money. Real American 180s and MG-42s instead of closed bolt conversions to go on my M-16. I would love to see what Lage Mfg would produce if it were designed from the ground up.

2. Look at the cost of POF and other uppers for the $600.00 to $700.00 AR's. People pay a lot of money for conversions to inexpensive lowers.

3. When I purchased my $400.00 M-11, MP-5s were $1,500.00 and I could still buy an aftermarket upper for my M-11 and save money over the cost of an MP-5. I probably would have after seeing Richard compete with his gun. (We all know it is the gun that wins and not Richard's ability as a shooter )

4. I was shooting my "M-16 9mm" in matches when I met Richard Lage and saw him compete with his preproduction upper. I now shoot a Max-11, not because it is cheaper than my M-16, but because it is the better gun for the matches I attend. Don't tell Richard:roflmao , but I probably would have paid more for it, it is that good.

 

[creophus]

Your gun must undergo a Sten magwell change in order to use Sten mags. Your factory magwell/grip is cut off and a new Sten magwell/grip is welded onto the lower.

At that point, you won't be able to use the factory Zytel mags or the converted metal Argentine PAM-2 mags that Recon Ordnance sells. You're limited to using Sten mags. The mags are currently running about six bucks each, but you need to factor in the cost of the magwell conversion and how many mags you'll want to see if it's cost effective for you.

Yes, you can run the Lage MAX-11 upper with a Sten magwell conversion and Sten mags.

Thanks! That's exactly what I needed to know.

 

[TrippHammer]

Garand you sound like you are pretty angry?

By the way creophus sorry for the hijack.

I never said I liked the prices of machineguns, but then again I sure don't like the prices on a nice sports car either.

Unfortunatly, owning a machine gun has turned from a Constitutional Right to a privelage and I can see where that gets people twisted. Its alway's been an issue for politicians to trade their votes for to get whats on their own agenda passed. I think the 2nd Amendment and by that matter all the Amendments should never be messed with. But they are AMENDMENTS to our countries highest law. I guess this means they can "AMEND" or change them at will? Seems unacceptable to me.

You seem to have ignored all the positives that have come out w/ the recent popularity of machineguns.

I don't think thats fare at all.

Who knows what would have happened if the ban in 1986 wasn't signed?

Machineguns would probably be more expensive, but who knows?

The facts remain unchanged. As long as theres a demand for this hobby then the prices will be high and thats unfortunatly the end of it.

I would love a transferable C&R Hotchiss or Maximum, but I'm not going to bitch, moan and complain because they are very expensive.

Anyway,
creophus the Lage is a very nice aftermarket upper and you'll enjoy the benefits of its relatively slow cyclic rate. Again an M-11 slowfire upper we probably would not have seen a few years back (production item) if not for the recent popularity of SWD M-11's

I hope you get one, I enjoy mine.

 

[AZ Doug]

...Again an M-11 slowfire upper we probably would not have seen a few years back (production item) if not for the recent popularity of SWD M-11's

I hope you get one, I enjoy mine.

Ok, which came first the chicken or the egg? Did the popularity of the Mac create the slow fire upper, or did the slow fire upper create the recent popularity of the Mac?:evilgrin

Please, I am just joking and do not expect a response.

 

[garandman]

Garand you sound like you are pretty angry?

Yeah, I kinda am at your elitist, semi-Marxist attitude.

Imagine if instead of Class 3 dealers, we had "free speech dealers" saying "Well, free speech really isn't for everyone."

Well, that's what you are saying about the very firearms the Constitution guarantees to the citizens.

If you can't understand the problem here, its because you don't want to, and well.... I can't help you with that.

You seem to have ignored all the positives that have come out w/ the recent popularity of machineguns.

I don't think thats fare at all.

Who knows what would have happened if the ban in 1986 wasn't signed?

.

Of course we know what would have happenned - $800 MG's would cost $800.

Not $8,000. Or $18,000.

And without the bogus gov't restriction, more dealers would be making actual, real machine guns for us to buy (like a full auto AR 10 for $1,200, or maybe $3,000 M-60's)

The only "good" to come out of NFA 34 and NFA 86 is your ability to make a buck. I fully want you to make a living, but NOT at the expense of my Constitutional rights.

No more than I want to pay a premium to a "free speech dealer."

 

[Vegas SMG]

Ok, which came first the chicken or the egg? Did the popularity of the Mac create the slow fire upper, or did the slow fire upper create the recent popularity of the Mac?:evilgrin

Please, I am just joking and do not expect a response.

You're receiving a response anyway. :nana Actually TripHammer is getting one too. Here's a photo of my first M11/9 that I purchased New In Box in 2000. It was in stock locally and I knew I was over paying by at least $300.00. I was able to shoot it during the transfer and that was a big plus. Anyway, I think I paid $1050.00 for it tax and all.

I occupied my time waiting on the transfer buying all manner of accessories for the little buzzgun. What you see represents much more than half the amount I paid for an over priced M11/9.

*ACE stock and AR/M11-9 adapter. about $225.00+.
*AutoWerkes H&K high rise sighted upper was around $175.00.
*AutoWerkes KA2 fore grip about $50.00.
*AutoWerkes Rate Reducer, about $175.00.
*Extended mag release, extended cocking knob, crappy, ineffective brake, fake suppressor, Cobray marked range bag, and various other small parts $??.
*Magazines really haven't changed much in price from eight years ago. I purchased ten Zytels from CDNN(?) for about $16.00 - $17.00 each. I also purchased some of the Argentine PAM-2 magazines from Jerry Prasser back then for twenty bucks each, same with CDNN. Yep, those aren't anything new guys.

Bottom line is I couldn't wait to hang a bunch of accessories on my new toy to make it something I wanted, price be damned.

However, I don't think any of these guy's (Lakeside, Lage, Stoney Creek, etc, etc) would be making these great uppers unless the price of machine guns where where they are today. This is my opinion.

The purpose of my post is to show that I spent 1/2 to 3/4 of what I paid for a NIB gun on accessories and never once regretted it. Here was a guy, Eric Nolan, making great products that weren't offered by anyone else for an inexpensive subgun. People were beating a path to his door.

 

[TrippHammer]

Well, I would think you would be a little more friendly about the debate we are having.

Calling me names like an Elitest or Marxist is mean spirited.

I don't appreciate that at all.

By the way; one thing Marxist, Socialist and Communist all have in common is they have no freedom!!!!

Call me a Capitalist, but because I have a business and I make a profit to survive, sure ok, ..........but its not ok to make too much money....hmmmmm whats that??? ahhhhh thats hogwash!

Our forefathers of this great nation never resolved their differences either.
One could argue thats why we have the Amendments. I rather enjoy that secound one!

I think you have issues w/ this debate far deeper than can be discuused
in a public forum.

Being pissed because machine guns shouldn't cost what they do is an argument that cannot be one.

As far as I can tell you aren't one of those shifty Senator's who snuck that bill in around 12:00 midnight on May 19th, 1986. Neither am I.

By the way
I'm angry because I want a Corvette they cost way to much than they should!

They are really only worth $2000.00 because they are made of fiberglass!
I think I'm going to write General Motors and complain! :nana

 

[garandman]

Well, I would think you would be a little more friendly about the debate we are having.

Calling me names like an Elitest or Marxist is mean spirited.

Perhaps. But it pales in comparison to the elitist attitude that "poor people commit crime" and the assertion that "full auto isn't for everyone - especially them poor people vermin walking the streets."

I'm mean. You are elitist and unConstitutional. Which attitude is a danger to the Republic?

And on behalf of poor folks everyone, associating poverty with crime is kinda mean spirited - to like tens of millions of people.

I don't know what you truly beleive, but your words here are elitist and your logic is that of the Marxist.

I don't appreciate that at all.

I know what yer sayin', bro. I don't appreciate your whole attitude here at all.

I guess you and I just have a very different view of what gun ownership is really all about. To me, its about freedom, something guaranteed to all the people, regardless of income strata. Perhaps I should just leave it at that.

 

[TrippHammer]

Perhaps I should just leave it at that

Yeah I think we finally agree on something

Good day sir!

 

[firebugfab]

hey creophus, the gun seems like its an ok deal if you cant wait. I have delt with Larry at firearmdeals he is a good guy and you will get a good gun from him.

+1 on Larry, I bought my ac-556 from him. Great to work with. One thing about Larry is he does not use the phone for communication which was fine with me because I hate phones as well. Email him and you will get a response ultra-quick.