Looking for owners with problems with the MM23 beltfed .223
- Thread starter Bob T
- Start date
I'll be having another range session on Saturday and we'll try again to diagnose this problem. The exasperating part of it is that I bought two 23Es and resold one to a buddy. His gun runs flawlessly and we have tried swapping out parts from his gun to mine in about every configuration we could think of and my gun still won't run. At one point we had every removable part on the gun swapped out with his parts and it still did the same thing.
Very frustrating.
Very frustrating.
One symptom of my first gun was I could not get it sighted in until I trimmed the front sight significantly.
the amount of adjustment in the rear sight just was not enough.
I believe this was an indicator of moderate to severe misalignment of something. Maybe this is why the buffer cracked?
To get my gun running Mike finally replaced it with a "known good one", It had been back three times and he still couldn't find what was wrong. He would claim it was fixed but when I would get it back it would malfunction 7 times in a hundred rounds, same sympton as you are getting, hammer down on a lightly dimpled round, trigger not working. Gun worked 100% in semi but the hammer would fall early in FA mode and fail to fire.
If your buddy's gun works with your trigger group, your barrel, your carrier,spring and bolt, your buttstock and your feed mechanisim then it has to be a receiver problem because that is all that is left isn't it?
the amount of adjustment in the rear sight just was not enough.
I believe this was an indicator of moderate to severe misalignment of something. Maybe this is why the buffer cracked?
To get my gun running Mike finally replaced it with a "known good one", It had been back three times and he still couldn't find what was wrong. He would claim it was fixed but when I would get it back it would malfunction 7 times in a hundred rounds, same sympton as you are getting, hammer down on a lightly dimpled round, trigger not working. Gun worked 100% in semi but the hammer would fall early in FA mode and fail to fire.
If your buddy's gun works with your trigger group, your barrel, your carrier,spring and bolt, your buttstock and your feed mechanisim then it has to be a receiver problem because that is all that is left isn't it?
Yes, we tried his sear pack in my gun- same result.
No, my sear has not been to Mike. It works fine in my MP5 and in my PTR 32. I just installed a brand new timed hammer from Adam. Still no joy.
The problem crops up every few rounds. I may get three or four in a burst, but then it stops working with a live round in the chamber, hammer forward, and a very light impression from the firing pin.
The gun used to gobble up Tula ammo with almost boring regularity. Now it won't and so far we haven't come up with a reason. I thought the discovery of the broken buffer might have fixed things, but the problem persists.
If this session this coming weekend doesn't produce a solution, it's going back to Mike.
No, my sear has not been to Mike. It works fine in my MP5 and in my PTR 32. I just installed a brand new timed hammer from Adam. Still no joy.
The problem crops up every few rounds. I may get three or four in a burst, but then it stops working with a live round in the chamber, hammer forward, and a very light impression from the firing pin.
The gun used to gobble up Tula ammo with almost boring regularity. Now it won't and so far we haven't come up with a reason. I thought the discovery of the broken buffer might have fixed things, but the problem persists.
If this session this coming weekend doesn't produce a solution, it's going back to Mike.
One last question. Assume you have pulled the trigger pack and found the hammer forward vs just not being able to fire the gun? If the second case (i.e. can't fire the gun) the issue could also be due to the full auto trip lever not tripping, which is an issue that mine had developed nearly all the time in semi, just before the bolt fell out in pieces (still have the issue with the new bolt but only once in a long while).
Would say clean everything up including the chamber, try some NATO spec XM193 ammo and give it good test run this weekend. Best of luck.
Would say clean everything up including the chamber, try some NATO spec XM193 ammo and give it good test run this weekend. Best of luck.
Dink,
This is deja vue of the problem I had with mine before Mike replaced the receiver (after 3 trips back to Mike to try to fix the problem).
Gun would work 100 % in semi.
In FA mode it would stop with a round chambered but hammer forward, round had slight firing pin dimple in it. This would happen 7 or 8 times in a hundred round belt.
My sear pack worked 100% in FA mode in MP5, MP5K-PDW, HK21, C-93.
Before the problem, gun worked with TULA and Wolf very well.
Gun would not work properly either with XM193, Wolf or Tula after the problem, all brands had the failure in FA mode.
The conclusion I came to was that the gun somehow was tripping the FA sear too early, the hammer would then follow the bolt home resulting in a no fire situation. Manually checking the action sequence by slowly allowing the bolt to move forward within the receiver under control with the cocking lever showed everything working as it should. Timing seemed spot on, hammer would release in FA mode when it was supposed to. But in live FA mode fire - repeated failures.
Mike tried moving the trip point on the bottom of the bolt back slighly by cutting it with a mill. Didn't change the problem. He put a much stronger spring on the sear, so much so that it was hard to uninstall and reinstall the sear into the trigger pack. Didn't change the problem. Each time the gun was returned to me Mike would say it was fixed. Within a few hundred rounds the problem was back.
I had sent the sear pack along with the gun a few times.
Mike would say "It works in my testing, it is fixed" "Yours was one of the first 5 guns made, the early guns did have some problems"
"you are the only one having this issue" "Had some heat treat problems with early components"
But on the last trip back when he tested it, he got the same problem. Would only fire one round in FA mode. That is when he said he would replace the receiver under warranty. I got the "new" gun back and it worked for about 300 rounds and then the hammer broke in two (just like the picture in the thread).
Put a new retimed hammer (from HK Parts) in and the gun was back to works in semi mode only. Took the buffer out of the stock and it was cracked 3/4 of the way around. Sent buffer and broken hammer in to Mike. Just got the replacements a week ago and so far the gun is back to working in FA mode.
Sorry to be so long winded about this but our situations sound very similar, thought the detail might help.
This is deja vue of the problem I had with mine before Mike replaced the receiver (after 3 trips back to Mike to try to fix the problem).
Gun would work 100 % in semi.
In FA mode it would stop with a round chambered but hammer forward, round had slight firing pin dimple in it. This would happen 7 or 8 times in a hundred round belt.
My sear pack worked 100% in FA mode in MP5, MP5K-PDW, HK21, C-93.
Before the problem, gun worked with TULA and Wolf very well.
Gun would not work properly either with XM193, Wolf or Tula after the problem, all brands had the failure in FA mode.
The conclusion I came to was that the gun somehow was tripping the FA sear too early, the hammer would then follow the bolt home resulting in a no fire situation. Manually checking the action sequence by slowly allowing the bolt to move forward within the receiver under control with the cocking lever showed everything working as it should. Timing seemed spot on, hammer would release in FA mode when it was supposed to. But in live FA mode fire - repeated failures.
Mike tried moving the trip point on the bottom of the bolt back slighly by cutting it with a mill. Didn't change the problem. He put a much stronger spring on the sear, so much so that it was hard to uninstall and reinstall the sear into the trigger pack. Didn't change the problem. Each time the gun was returned to me Mike would say it was fixed. Within a few hundred rounds the problem was back.
I had sent the sear pack along with the gun a few times.
Mike would say "It works in my testing, it is fixed" "Yours was one of the first 5 guns made, the early guns did have some problems"
"you are the only one having this issue" "Had some heat treat problems with early components"
But on the last trip back when he tested it, he got the same problem. Would only fire one round in FA mode. That is when he said he would replace the receiver under warranty. I got the "new" gun back and it worked for about 300 rounds and then the hammer broke in two (just like the picture in the thread).
Put a new retimed hammer (from HK Parts) in and the gun was back to works in semi mode only. Took the buffer out of the stock and it was cracked 3/4 of the way around. Sent buffer and broken hammer in to Mike. Just got the replacements a week ago and so far the gun is back to working in FA mode.
Sorry to be so long winded about this but our situations sound very similar, thought the detail might help.
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Bob T Thanks for the details, the more the better. Is a good thread with everyone sharing and discussing everything. Sounds like with good luck you might be all set to go ... will know more a dozen cases of ammo from now ;-).
Sounds like time to check what would be called "timing" in an Browning Machine Gun (i.e. 1919A4), don't know if it exactly applys to the "HK"23e but on the G3s when they were first setup with a sear pack always placed a spacer in front of the bolt (drill but) and make sure did not fire with the bolt a little bit open.
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eyegun
Well-known member
There's been quite a bit of discussion on the possibility (or not) of an OOB using the roller locked/locking piece/HK mechanism. Then you see a couple of pics like this with a solid primer hit and the case is blown apart and you have to wonder....
My 23 has a new retimed hammer in the pack..The broken one swapped EZ..TG I have no 4 position pack..Going to the range this weekend ..Hope for the best!! Last time was Big Sandy had it and Eyeguns on The Twin Mount..mine Failed @100 rounds ..Aw crap was my thought after hauling the Twin mount and fitting the pair to the mount ..I was jones-en for some kill's on the pesky planes at Big Sandy..
Any pictures or details on the twin mount? Is it a twin MG42 AA mount?
I put my 23 onto the MG42 ground tripod but it would not fire FA, just singles. Used the adapter that MM sells for that purpose. This was done at the Big Sandy shoot and the gun crapped out begore I got to fiddle with it to figure out the problem. My 21 (using a different adapter) works in FA mode on that tripod a-ok.
I put my 23 onto the MG42 ground tripod but it would not fire FA, just singles. Used the adapter that MM sells for that purpose. This was done at the Big Sandy shoot and the gun crapped out begore I got to fiddle with it to figure out the problem. My 21 (using a different adapter) works in FA mode on that tripod a-ok.
eyegun
Well-known member
Here's a few photos of the twin mount taken in Slingo's garage. The whole schebang didn't last long enough at Big Sandy for vids of photos.....
Here's a photo of my MM23e sitting in a ring mount in Slingo's Suburban which has been 'specially adapted'....
And here's a video of a the MM23e in the ring mount (gotta wait for it...)....(movie by NoHair).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkt2Q6IoaW0&feature=share&list=UUjDjuQyzEG6XdKjRZTKN5ag
Here's a photo of my MM23e sitting in a ring mount in Slingo's Suburban which has been 'specially adapted'....
And here's a video of a the MM23e in the ring mount (gotta wait for it...)....(movie by NoHair).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkt2Q6IoaW0&feature=share&list=UUjDjuQyzEG6XdKjRZTKN5ag
My bad, it was the trip on the bottom of the bolt carrier. While it did affect when the trip occurred it did not fix the problem. Something else was causing the early trip, which we never figured out, he just replaced the rceiver and went back to the standard bolt carrier.
At this point the gun started working correctly again, but within a few hundred rounds the hammer broke in two.
At this point the gun started working correctly again, but within a few hundred rounds the hammer broke in two.
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