Looking to buy my first MAC. Q's

[Specialblend07]

Hello,

Long time lurker, not much of a poster.

I think I'm going to finally start the process of hunting for a MAC to purchase. It will be my first true MAC (own MPA's). I do have a few questions.

1) Is there anything I should look out for?

2) 9mm or 45? Or is this just personal preference?

3) Since it'll be a C&R, is there one I should look for more than the other? Military Armament? PS? ETC.?

4) How difficult is the process to owning a FA gun? I'm assuming my FFL will help with the paperwork process? On average how long does it take to get my Form 3 (it is Form 3, correct?).

5) We have a cabin in a different state which is where we primarily shoot. I do believe I can cross state lines WITH ATF notification. Anyone ever done this?

6) I'm seeing prices range from $7-14k. Is this normal for the current market?

Thanks!!!!

 

[skoda]

1. Do want a shooter or a collector piece? Condition isn't very important for a shooter if you get it for a low price, for a collector piece condition is nearly everything. All other problems can be solved by Sam at Practical Solutions or a heavy coating of Lage parts.
2. You are indicating a MAC-10 with this question. Is there a reason for that? An M11/9 is a much more versatile choice.
3. Not many C&Rs yet (is that the reason for a MAC-10?) but those that are are all MAC PS made. No Jersey Arms etc.
4. The process is no worse than getting a passport. Does your state allow them? The FFL sure will help with the paperwork, if not they aren't worth their money. It will transfer to you on a Form 4 which takes 3-12 months depending on luck and the phase of the moon when you submit it. Your dealer should file it with an E form to speed things up. If your dealer can't/won't do the E form look for another dealer.
5. You can take it to another state to shoot if that state allows NFA. You have to file the form each time you travel. If you do get a C&R gun and you have a C&R FFL yourself then you don't need to notify them.
6. Yes, about $7k for a shooter and the sky is the limit for collector stuff. Don't be fooled too much on the term 'collector'. MACs are not strong collector material. You get a collector grade because you have money and you want to have it for your own satisfaction. You aren't going to make big money on them. But don't delay too long because the answer to that question next year will be $8-15k. I had a friend who looked for several years for an MAC that was lower than the going rate. In the end he spent about $1500 more than if he had just bought when he first started.

 

[Specialblend07]

1. Do want a shooter or a collector piece? Condition isn't very important for a shooter if you get it for a low price, for a collector piece condition is nearly everything. All other problems can be solved by Sam at Practical Solutions or a heavy coating of Lage parts.
This would be a shooter, I have a hard time collecting things and not using them!

2. You are indicating a MAC-10 with this question. Is there a reason for that? An M11/9 is a much more versatile choice.
Not at all! These are the types of responses I'm looking for! I'm assuming the M11/9 is more versatile due to size?

3. Not many C&Rs yet (is that the reason for a MAC-10?) but those that are are all MAC PS made. No Jersey Arms etc.
This is where my new guy status will show. I'm under the impression to own a FA gun, it has to be C&R, which I wasn't sure if other MFG's aside from MAC had any. I thought there was another MAC style that had hit C&R status recently. But again, I'm pretty new to this

4. The process is no worse than getting a passport. Does your state allow them? The FFL sure will help with the paperwork, if not they aren't worth their money. It will transfer to you on a Form 4 which takes 3-12 months depending on luck and the phase of the moon when you submit it. Your dealer should file it with an E form to speed things up. If your dealer can't/won't do the E form look for another dealer.
I'm in Minnesota, which does allow C&R. My local FFL is very good so I'm assuming it won't be an issue. Just thought I'd ask on this

5. You can take it to another state to shoot if that state allows NFA. You have to file the form each time you travel. If you do get a C&R gun and you have a C&R FFL yourself then you don't need to notify them.
Perfect, thank you. Our cabin is WI which also allows C&R
6. Yes, about $7k for a shooter and the sky is the limit for collector stuff. Don't be fooled too much on the term 'collector'. MACs are not strong collector material. You get a collector grade because you have money and you want to have it for your own satisfaction. You aren't going to make big money on them. But don't delay too long because the answer to that question next year will be $8-15k. I had a friend who looked for several years for an MAC that was lower than the going rate. In the end he spent about $1500 more than if he had just bought when he first started.

I was hoping to purchase one within the next month. I have my eyes on GB as well as some random google searches. Is there anywhere else I should be looking?


Thanks for the response! I answered your questions in red above.

 

[JackBlundell]

The M11/9 is more versatile due to market size. There are more transferable M11/9s on the registry than all other Ingram variants put together. After market products are developed for the M11/9 first, then the other variants.

Sturmgewehr is an on-line market specializing in NFA firearms: http://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/index.php?/forum/5-nfa-market-board/

There are several good dealers that usually have machine guns in stock. Rubin Mendiola is on the expensive side, but offers good service and has a great reputation: https://dealernfa.com/product-category/machine-guns/all-transferable-machine-guns/ AutoWeapons usually has some MACs in stock: https://autoweapons.com/products/products.html

I'm sure others will chime in with more recommendations as to where to look for a transferable sub-gun.

I'm a shooter like you. The only thing I looked at when I bought my M11/9 was the lower receiver. When you inspect the lower receiver, make sure the welds are sound, there is no egging in the receiver pin hole, and there are no bulges or cracks anywhere. Over time, you are going to replace pretty much everything in the gun except the lower receiver, so the other parts don't matter much. Bring along a ZMag or two and make sure they fit in the gun.

 

[pmf]

I second the advice of getting a SWD M11/9. Its the most common mac and has the most accessories available. The lower receiver is all that matters. You'll replace the upper -- most likely with a Lage upper. IMO, the gun isn't safe to shoot in its stock configuration. You never pay too much for a machine gun, you just buy it too late. I'd first find a FFL/SOT in your area. He can help you with the application process. Its a PITA and takes a year or longer. Not every gun shop owner can transfer NFA items. You need an additional license (SOT).

Lage just came out with an upper that converts the gun into a 223 caliber machine gun -- looks like a M-16. This, like his other products, have added to what a M11/9 costs.

 

[skoda]

The M11/9 is just more versatile than the M10's (45 and 9mm) and the M11 (380). Also the M10 grip is a bit large as is the gun so I'd take that into consideration. The M11 comes with big and small mag wells which affect the size of the grip. The big well is the same as the M11/9.

The M11/9 is the most common MG of the series and so tends to have more accessories available for it. Since Lage is the primary source of accessories and he is branching out a bit more lately the difference isn't as big as it was. Still on the second hand market the M11/9 wins for accessories (uppers, 22 conversions, and such). Magazines for the M11/9 and M11 large well are obtained from Shockwave. The M10-45 takes M3 grease gun mags which are easy to find but no longer cheap - about $30-40 each same as the Shockwave mags. The M10-9mm and M11 small well mags are about twice that if not more.

If you are in Minnesota I think that you can only get C&R guns so that would limit you to M-10's made before 1973 as they have to be 50 years old to be C&R (for the most part). You can tell by the serial number which on the M10-45's starts 1-XY........ the X is the year of manufacture and Y is the serial portion of the number. Production started in late 1970 so you need to look for a 1-0 or 1-1, a 1-2 would work if you could prove that it was registered before the date that you submit your transfer. Double check you state laws on the C&R thing. Also for Wisconsin. M10-9mm are 2-XY....... and M11's are 3-XY...........

GB will find you some but you can pay a lot there on average but you can get lucky. Also some shady people hang out there. Rubin Mendiola has MACs and is a trustworthy dealer. But his stuff tends to the high end and his prices reflect the quality and service. After dealing with some scheisters you might want to pay the extra and go with him. I bought a couple of things from him and did not mind the extra money. I also got one from Sidearm Sam in Florida with no issue. Don't be too cheap or you will land up being miserable. Like anything you have to know what you are looking for and do your homework on the seller. I often just type in google a person's name and the words 'cheat' 'rip-off' 'scheister', etc. and see what comes up.

 

[Jmacken37]

Hello,

Long time lurker, not much of a poster.

I think I'm going to finally start the process of hunting for a MAC to purchase. It will be my first true MAC (own MPA's). I do have a few questions.

1) Is there anything I should look out for?

2) 9mm or 45? Or is this just personal preference?

3) Since it'll be a C&R, is there one I should look for more than the other? Military Armament? PS? ETC.?

4) How difficult is the process to owning a FA gun? I'm assuming my FFL will help with the paperwork process? On average how long does it take to get my Form 3 (it is Form 3, correct?).

5) We have a cabin in a different state which is where we primarily shoot. I do believe I can cross state lines WITH ATF notification. Anyone ever done this?

6) I'm seeing prices range from $7-14k. Is this normal for the current market?

Thanks!!!!

1) Make sure there are no cracked welds, significant pitting, egged pin holes, etc on the lower receiver. These are crude and simple guns that can be repaired, but it'd be nice to not have to mess with a new purchase unless you are getting a deal.

2) I wouldn't chose by caliber, but rather size. In my opinion, the MAC 10 guns are bricks and much less ergonomic than the M11/Nine or M11A1 guns. In order of preference, I'd go for: M11/Nine "normal grip/magwell">M11/Nine "sten grip">M11A1 "normal grip">M11A1 "small grip">PS MAC 10>other MAC 10 guns

3) do you need a C&R gun? If so, that might affect your choice.

4) Not difficult. Lots of step by step walk throughs out there. Your dealer should help.

5) Yes. Not hard. Have to submit a form.

6) good luck at the $7K end of things.

Glad to have you here!

 

[A&S Conversions]

Before buying anything, I would contact a NFA specific dealer in your state. I am not familiar with the laws in Minnesota or Wisconsin. There is a caviot with C&R guns. It is my understanding that a C&R gun is only C&R in factory configuration. I might be misinformed, but since we are talking about an item with a market value of around $8,000.00 plus that might or might not be transferred to you depending on configuration, I personally would want clarification. Could having a Lage stock and upper put you outside State law? I don't know. I would want clarification if my freedom and thousands of dollars were on the line. It is my understanding that the C&R states limitations is to be an FFL holder to possess machineguns in those states. I don't want to "rain on your parade", but I would want to know the finer points of the law, specifically for where I would want to keep this machinegun, before spending thousands of dollars on an item I might or might not be able to possess legally.

Scott

 

[Offmarksman]

The advice about choosing by the size and not caliber is very good advice. Accessory wise, they are all about the same. Lage offers all the same uppers and calibers for all of the platforms. The only exception being the .22lr conversion kit (which he no longer makes). However, I’ve heard rumors that he may offer a .22 kit for the 5.56 uppers he is currently selling.

 

[Deerhurst]

Hello,

Long time lurker, not much of a poster.

I think I'm going to finally start the process of hunting for a MAC to purchase. It will be my first true MAC (own MPA's). I do have a few questions.

1) Is there anything I should look out for?

2) 9mm or 45? Or is this just personal preference?

The 45 will only be an M10. I have a PS M10 in 45ACP. It'll do smaller stuff with mag adapters and uppers. The 9mm won't do anything bigger without magwell changes.

3) Since it'll be a C&R, is there one I should look for more than the other? Military Armament? PS? ETC.?

Have the M10s hit C&R? I think mine will next year as it is a 1973 gun. Powder Springs is Military Armament Corp.

4) How difficult is the process to owning a FA gun? I'm assuming my FFL will help with the paperwork process? On average how long does it take to get my Form 3 (it is Form 3, correct?).

It'll be a Form 4 to you or your trust. A F3 to the dealer from seller if you go through one. Paperwork is the same as for a suppressor or SBR on a Form 4. A few pages and a bunch of waiting. Basically like an extended 4473.

5) We have a cabin in a different state which is where we primarily shoot. I do believe I can cross state lines WITH ATF notification. Anyone ever done this?

You can as long as MGs are fine in that state and you notify the AFT you are crossing the border. I've takes mine across the nation for Knob Creek. Not a big deal. Tell them you plan to go to X location for X timeframe. It can be up to a year.

6) I'm seeing prices range from $7-14k. Is this normal for the current market?

Probably fair now. I paid under $7k for my PS with a pile of mags a couple years back and it was a good deal. I want to say PS guns draw a little more but later guns have some of the fixes from the factory like bracing at the front pin. Guys like Sam at Practical Solutions does this to guns that don't have it.

Thanks!!!!

Hope I helped a little!

 

[TSPC]

It seems that in Wisconsin a private citizen cannot have a machine gun that fires a pistol caliber cartridge!


(2) Exceptions. Sections 941.25 and 941.26 shall not prohibit or interfere with the manufacture for, and sale of, machine guns to the military forces or the peace officers of the United States or of any political subdivision thereof, or the transportation required for that purpose; the possession of a machine gun for scientific purpose, or the possession of a machine gun not usable as a weapon and possessed as a curiosity, ornament or keepsake; or the possession of a machine gun other than one adapted to use pistol cartridges for a purpose manifestly not aggressive or offensive.

 

[challenger70rt]

Not an expert here, but do have some knowledge. I believe Minnesota IS a c&r only mg state, meaning your choices for buying a mg there are limited to ONLY c&r eligible guns. For Macs right now this is going to limit you to only Powder Springs m10’s and m11 .380 guns. In 10/45 Guns it would have to be guns that start with 1-1 and some 1-2 series of s/n. For 10/9 guns you’d be looking at 2-1, and 2-2 s/n are ALL now c&r and some of the earlier 2-3 series. For m11 .380 guns it would be s/n 3-1, 3-2 and some of the early 3-3 guns. If you’re going to buy a c&r eligible mg in a c&r only state you really might as well apply for a c&r FFL. It only costs $10 a year, is rather simple to get, and it will save you WELL more then its cost both in money for dealer transfer fees, potential stamp costs, and you wouldn’t need a 5320.20 to travel out of state with your c&r mg because it would be covered under your FFL. Although be forewarned I believe WI has some weird mg laws as well. I think you can ONLY have smg’s there and I think you have to get approved by local law enforcement for a “state mg license” or some such nonsense there (I bought a smg from a WI resident once) but I’m not sure if that applies to a non-resident that just wants to shoot there occasionally, so there are definitely some things to look into there as well. As to price.. I’d say realistically your probably looking at $8k-12k, and they seem to be going up by the day. The market is shitty right now and there doesn’t seem to be much available at the moment. It’s very much a sellers market at this time or seems to be.

 

[Mackjack]

I’m fairly certain as well that Minnesota only allows C&R machine guns

Wisconsin doesn’t matter, they are like most states in that regard… as to the responses above about pistol caliber machine guns and legal ownership in the state, yes you can own them but you need a signed law letter from the chief of police…. So it’s doable.

C&R status generally commands a premium price as some states like yours only allow them, so keep that in mind when price comparisons are made.

 

[Specialblend07]

Wow,

Thanks for all the great responses!

So, yes, Minnesota is in fact a C&R only state. The Wisconsin deal doesn’t worry me as much now as I can deal with that situation later. I have local ranges here, I just enjoy shooting outside at our cabin as it’s a different setup. I looked at some other C&R FA firearms and holy smokes, those aren’t for me on several levels!

Anyways, I did look into the Class 3 and I will be filling that out. I have the forms necessary for that. It appears I also need to fill out a form with the BCA here for C&R ownership

Are there any M10/11’s that are already at C&R? Sorry if I missed that above. Or am I going to have to wait until 2023 and find an early serial number? It would be terrific if I could find one now, pay for it, and have it held until it turns the magic number on Jan 1st.

I’m going to speak with my local dealer tomorrow as well and see what they say. I can’t be the only one in this state who likes having fun!

 

[renovate7]

And I'll have a different opinion. I have an M10/45 and a M11/9. I prefer the M10 as its bigger and heavier. And it will let you shoot 45, an excellent round if you want a suppressor. And now it has a .223 upper available. So, with an M10 you can shoot 9mm, .45 and .223.

 

[ferndog1]

Get MAC info here

https://www.chipotlepublishing.com/product/the-mac-man-gordon-b-ingram-and-his-submachine-guns/

 

[Galil#1]

I too prefer the Big MAC, more beef... M10... thicker sheet metal (Idk by how much exactly?) especially in its pending new found role as a MG w/ the Lage MAX 10-15! Have Sam/Practical Solutions add the reinforcement tabs to the receiver, helps assure durability/less egging, especially if you enjoy shooting a lot. JMHO.

 

[CKxx]

One issue with the market today, much like homes, you aren't going to get time to sit and inspect anything. You'll likely be making a quick decision, sight unseen. Just something to weigh and be ready for.

 

[skoda]

One issue with the market today, much like homes, you aren't going to get time to sit and inspect anything. You'll likely be making a quick decision, sight unseen. Just something to weigh and be ready for.

Good point. Really good deals go in hours or even minutes of posting. Do your homework, know what you want and what to look out for. Have your financials set and be ready to jump on a deal if you see it.

 

[Gaujo]

You are in luck. The first C&R Mac's came into existence last March, about 50 days ago. Your only choice will be an early powder springs M10 gun made in 1972, the first year of manufacture. I got one last year without realizing it was c&r. I am not sure if any M11 were made that early or not, buy the Mac man book and see.

I say . 45 as you can still shoot 9mm out of it, but you can't shoot . 45 out of anything else. SWD M11/9 are out of the question for many years.

Natural market price right now is about 10K. The market figure has not really been set for c&R guns so I don't know.