M11/15 Prototype

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F-ing Hostile

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My hat's off to you 200 or lower numbered guys on the list. Typically, 2 to 3 years and 100 to 200 units are needed to really debug the designs. I'll wait a couple of years until the first few hundred or so have been thoroughly wrung out and tweaks have been implemented. And if the Tech Branch hasn't pulled a fast one by then (as they have been known to do) I'll ask to get on the list. The thousands of rounds of M193, M855, M856, and API left over from my RR days aren't going anywhere.

I've purchased nearly every upper/part/.22 kit Richard Lage has ever manufactured, and can't recall a single one ever needing debugged or tweaked! By the time you get on the list, he may just "one-up" himself and release an M11/15 MKII :bang
 

rybread

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I've purchased nearly every upper/part/.22 kit Richard Lage has ever manufactured, and can't recall a single one ever needing debugged or tweaked! By the time you get on the list, he may just "one-up" himself and release an M11/15 MKII :bang

This. I have no concern about a Lage product out of the gate. It will be good- if there is a later update, I'll be happy to pick up an improved one!
 

SecondAmend

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My hat's off to you 200 or lower numbered guys on the list. Typically, 2 to 3 years and 100 to 200 units are needed to really debug the designs. I'll wait a couple of years until the first few hundred or so have been thoroughly wrung out and tweaks have been implemented. And if the Tech Branch hasn't pulled a fast one by then (as they have been known to do) I'll ask to get on the list. The thousands of rounds of M193, M855, M856, and API left over from my RR days aren't going anywhere.

As I understand it, the current so-called M11/15 upper is of a design that came from the AA SABRE and has been tweaked by MAK91 and may be tweaked more by Mr. Lage. So the learning curve issues that you note have, hopefully, been addressed or are being addressed.

Disclaimer: as I have posted previously, I do not plan on obtaining the M11/15 as I do not ever plan to modify the lower receiver in any way.

MHO, YMMV, etc.
 

JohnnyE

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My hat's off to you 200 or lower numbered guys on the list. Typically, 2 to 3 years and 100 to 200 units are needed to really debug the designs. I'll wait a couple of years until the first few hundred or so have been thoroughly wrung out and tweaks have been implemented. And if the Tech Branch hasn't pulled a fast one by then (as they have been known to do) I'll ask to get on the list. The thousands of rounds of M193, M855, M856, and API left over from my RR days aren't going anywhere.

I am somewhat more optimistic because most of the upper is milspec AR parts. It's the interface between the MAC lower and Lage upper that's unique. That means designing attachment points, (already accomplished with the MAX31, etc. uppers), and trigger operation. The BCG, bolt and barrel lockup, etc., are all tried and true off-the-shelf components.
 

DistalRadius

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Richard does make constant revisions to his product line as issues arise. This is normal. The first run will almost certainly display some sort of minor issue and necessary changes will be made. I'm certain that any purchaser of a 1st Gen unit who experiences problems will be able to send it in for correction.

Richard won't sell this unit until it meets his standards for reliability. But when something has this many possible end-user configurations and variables like we will be seeing here, slight teething problems are inevitable.

The staggering amount of aftermarket products available for the AR platform is what makes this unit appealing, but it will also make it a nightmare to beta test as it is not possible to test every combination of AR-15 bolt, carrier, buffer, springs, ammo, suppressors, and magazines in addition to the variety of M11/9 accessories also available which could be used in conjunction. The permutations are staggering. I guarantee you somebody will manage to configure this thing in such a way as to induce malfunctions. Thats why Lage is less inclined to sell it as a kit. At least as a complete package he can more or less guarantee that it will function as designed. Once you start monkeying with it (which is exactly what everyone is dying to do) the problems will start to appear.

But, as we know; Lage will make it right.
 

IndustrialRescue

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While I'd LOVE to monkey with it, I'm perfectly happy with leaving it completely unmolested, and running it as Lage sells it.
 

lokifox

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While I'd LOVE to monkey with it, I'm perfectly happy with leaving it completely unmolested, and running it as Lage sells it.

Never!!! 458 SOCOM or bust! :)

Seriously though... The first thing I'm going to do.

The next thing is a long barrel on a pintle mount with a water jacket. The open bolt design would allow you to get stupid and still be safe.
 

yzfchet

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Not for nothing has my title been changed to 'UZI Talk Instigator'. Thus, my earlier comment.

I know Richard and his products well; I was about to buy an UZI when I shot his first version of the MAX-11/9. Guess what I ended up buying in 2007?

My real (and only) concern is Tech Branch. Fickle doesn't quite describe the decision-making process - if there is one - which governs their rulings. I'm guessing that if an approved upper is in production for a year or so then we should be relatively safe from an epic butt-fucking like that enjoyed by customers of Tom Akins for his Akins Accelerator.

Of course, I'll still try to wheedle him into letting me shoot the versions at our local range as they advance in design.
 

ScottinTexas

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I'm somewhere in the first group of 50 on the list and I have zero concerns about Lage having to 'tweak' something. None. If there is an issue I know it will be corrected.

I also feel confident that Lage won't be shipping anything without solid BATF approvals. It's not like they are amateurs at this.

No risk at all for anyone except Lage Manufacturing.
 

A&S Conversions

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...The next thing is a long barrel on a pintle mount with a water jacket. The open bolt design would allow you to get stupid and still be safe.

Speaking from personal experience with water cooled M16, direct impingement is the route I chose. Long or short stroke piston mechanism must vent the gas right where I wanted the water jacket to be. DI vents back at the receiver. It does require another possible point for the water jacket to leak. Instead of a roll pin, I used a bolt to hold the gas tube in place. I also silver sodered the gas tube to the gas block.

The one thing I had not thought of is the water around the gas tube reduced the volume of the gas going to the bolt group. I had to open the gas port in the barrel three numbered drill bit sizes to get the action to function with the jacket full of water. This is my water cooled project before Valkyrie belt feed conversion:



It would seem to me, that an "upper" for a MAC style RR was based on the AR DI system, a similar set up could be done. After the 500 rd burst I linked to, the water jacket was warm but not hot. I could leave my hand on it. So open bolt or closed bolt, with a water jacket, I doubt the barrel would get hot enough to have cook off issues.

Has anyone done a spade grip for MAC style receiver commercially? I wonder if a KNS could be adapted?

Scott
 

gfunk

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Where did you pick up the tripod? I'd like to start searching for a tripod.
 

MPA guy

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I just want Richard to hurry up so I can paint my mac 10/15 in flat dark earth and hang 12 pounds of useless junk off of it like all the other operators I see online.

Just kidding, I have no intentions of really doing that.

But I might do a water immersion dip in fluorescent green with zombie skulls and biohazard logos.

With night vision.

Green lasers.

12v high beam car headlight mounted to the rail somehow.

Yep. I'll be the most baddest mamma jamma on the whole block.
 

Vegas SMG

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supperman

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Just when you think your out and have all the Mac and Lage goodness.....they PULL you back in!
 

gfunk

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Thanks vegas. These mg42 tripods don't seem to easy to find based on initial search. I will keep hunting.
 

A&S Conversions

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There was a pile of them imported about 10 years ago. I bought several. I think the the least I paid was $125.00. Vegas has told me many times. If you see it it available, buy all that you can, especially surplus. There is a brand new one on GB http://www.gunbroker.com/item/627905482 with shipping for $80 and a buy it now price of $399. It looks like a the seller has a couple of them.

Scott

ETA there is another at https://www.apexgunparts.com/mg3-anti-aircraft-tripod-very-good.html if you are interested.
 
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Tall Pine

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^thanks Scott. I just picked one up. Seemed like a decent price $290 plus $25 shipping. Not sure I have a use yet, might try to make it work for a Colt LMG.
 

yzfchet

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<snip>

I also feel confident that Lage won't be shipping anything without solid BATF approvals. It's not like they are amateurs at this.

You must not be aware of the Akins Accelerator story. He, too, had not one but TWO BATFE approval letters, had gone into production and had sold around 200 units before BATFE arbitrarily changed their minds and issued a "cease and desist" order, along with a demand for the names & addresses of all of his customers.

Everyone had to surrender the springs from their stocks, and Tom was devastated financially. It was a classic example of utter lawlessness on the part of a government agency answerable to no one and operating from a position of fear and intimidation.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/mr-bill-akins-and-the-akins-accelerator/

Historically, the Tech Branch has looked unkindly on conversions that allow pistol caliber receivers to fire rifle caliber rounds. I was pleasantly surprised when the S.A.B.R.E. was approved...and then remained approved.
 
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