M11/22

[mak91]

Is that 5.56 and 7.62?

Yes, for starters.

 

[A&S Conversions]

So I have it clear, that is 5.56X45 using AR mags and 7.62X39 using AK mags, not 7.62X51 using AR 10 mags, correct? There was some talk of a 7.62X51 upper based on the AR 10.

Scott

 

[mak91]

So I have it clear, that is 5.56X45 using AR mags and 7.62X39 using AK mags, not 7.62X51 using AR 10 mags, correct? There was some talk of a 7.62X51 upper based on the AR 10.

Scott

Correct Scott. The 7.62x51 for the m10 is a different animal and has already passed atf inspection. What is shown above is for the m11/9 frame and as you said 5.56x45 using AR mags and 7.62x39 using AK mags. The receiver uses ar15 take down pins so the mag/barrel assembly swaps out like a ar15 upper does on a ar15 lower.

 

[A&S Conversions]

Actually, the real question is and has always been, "Is it worth doing?" That is to say, are there enough actual customers willing to pay for what would be a profitable enterprise?

MHO, YMMV, etc.

As previously posted, the AR-10 based upper has been approved. There are several AR-10 based shotguns available in the commercial market. So it would seem to me that it wouldn’t be hugely difficult to adapt a AR-10 based shotgun mechanism to the M10 AR-10 upper. YMMV.

Scott

 

[mak91]

As previously posted, the AR-10 based upper has been approved. There are several AR-10 based shotguns available in the commercial market. So it would seem to me that it wouldn’t be hugely difficult to adapt a AR-10 based shotgun mechanism to the M10 AR-10 upper. YMMV.

Scott

There are many so called ar10 style shot guns but if you look at their designs not many are anything like an ar10 or lr308 design making their use as a parts donor far less than ideal for a m10 conversion . Out of the ones that are designed like a ar10/lr308 most are expensive. I've spent 2 years researching and searching for the right donor at the right price for my m10/12ga prototype. There is no "mil spec" or standard for the ar10 /lr308 style guns like their is for the ar15/m16 so its the wild west when it comes to parts interchangeability and the ar10 styled shotguns are way out in no mans land.

 

[Alaska_Shooter]

Did you end up finding a donor? Is there anything you can sneak peek about how you solved the parts issue for a shotgun upper?

As I’ve mentioned, a FA shotgun is my grail gun. I thought about putting a super safety into an AR-10 shotgun upper but you’re right about those shotguns. $$$$$

 

[A&S Conversions]

My thought was Genesis Arms Gen-12. Yes, it is expensive, but my understanding is that it isn’t as ammo sensitive as other designs. So you can use cheap stuff, or full power stuff, and have it run. Maybe Genesis Arms would give a OEM volume discount if this goes into production? The Genesis system is based on the DPMS Generation 1 lower.

Which AR-10 system did you based the .308 approved upper on? It would seem to me that if you used the DPMS Generation 1 as the base of the .308 system, then wouldn’t you be able to do a similar magwell quick barrel change system as the medium caliber type of magwell for the AK 7.62/AR 5.56? With .308, 6.5 Credmoore, and 8.6 Black Out, wouldn’t there be similar interest as the medium caliber quick change barrel system for a .308 based system? Just a thought. Good luck with the upper projects.

Scott

 

[mak91]

Did you end up finding a donor? Is there anything you can sneak peek about how you solved the parts issue for a shotgun upper?

As I’ve mentioned, a FA shotgun is my grail gun. I thought about putting a super safety into an AR-10 shotgun upper but you’re right about those shotguns. $$$$$

I ended up using a jts ar12 for a parts donor. It was close enough to a ar10/lr308 design and it was cheap. PSA has a sale on them for $199 so I picked up 2 of them. I used Saiga ak style mags though since they ar the most popular and available mags.

 

[mak91]

Which AR-10 system did you based the .308 approved upper on? It would seem to me that if you used the DPMS Generation 1 as the base of the .308 system, then wouldn’t you be able to do a similar magwell quick barrel change system as the medium caliber type of magwell for the AK 7.62/AR 5.56? With .308, 6.5 Credmoore, and 8.6 Black Out, wouldn’t there be similar interest as the medium caliber quick change barrel system for a .308 based system? Just a thought. Good luck with the upper projects.

Scott

Scott I based the m10/308Nato on the DPMS lr308 (Gen 1) design since it has the most vendors making parts/accessores and mags.
As for a quick change barrel/mag on the m10/308Nato, sure it could be done but I don't think its needed. The credmoore and 8.6 Blackout both use unmodified 308 mags and there just isn't the large number of mag/caliber combinations for this platform like there is for the ar15.

Now as you say it might be handy to have a quick change barrel system for it so you could change barrels or change calibers that use the same mags. 308 full auto is expensive enough so how many guys will be shooting the even more expensive credmoore or 8.6 Blackout full auto? Most likely not many. I'm not sure the added complexity is worth it but anything is possible.

 

[Alaska_Shooter]

Thanks for the tidbits. You’re keeping the hook baited ?

 

[Gaujo]

I'm getting lost. Can someone link the post detailing the ar10 upper that was approved please?

 

[mak91]

I'm getting lost. Can someone link the post detailing the ar10 upper that was approved please?

m10/308Nato

 

[mak91]

Thanks for the tidbits. You’re keeping the hook baited ?

I had hoped to do a video of it running so I could post a thread about it by now but I'm to wimpy to shoot a full auto 12ga one handed ?. 5 years ago I ruptured the tfcc in my right hand. I had surgery on it but it was deemed un repairable and all they could do was clean out some of the debris. From time to time it acts up and a few months ago it really started to hurt. A few weeks ago I had some injections done in it but it hasn't helped. At times I can hardly use it for anything. I'm lucky I can still keep the mill running to make these parts, ironically I was working on my mill when I hurt it.

 

[A&S Conversions]

Scott I based the m10/308Nato on the DPMS lr308 (Gen 1) design since it has the most vendors making parts/accessores and mags.
As for a quick change barrel/mag on the m10/308Nato, sure it could be done but I don't think its needed. The credmoore and 8.6 Blackout both use unmodified 308 mags and there just isn't the large number of mag/caliber combinations for this platform like there is for the ar15.

Now as you say it might be handy to have a quick change barrel system for it so you could change barrels or change calibers that use the same mags. 308 full auto is expensive enough so how many guys will be shooting the even more expensive credmoore or 8.6 Blackout full auto? Most likely not many. I'm not sure the added complexity is worth it but anything is possible.

Certainly, your design, your choice. To me, the driving force in the market value of machine guns is versatility and ease of caliber conversion. In 2004 I bought my first machine gun, a Colt M16 with a nine million serial number. As I recall at that time, the market value and hierarchy was Colt M16 ($10,000), M16 registered receiver conversions from a semi auto modified with a GI autosear ($8,000), DIAS ($6,000 for steel and $5,500 for aluminum), and a Lighting Link ( $4,000) (before the Lighting Link Protector). Today the DIAS is at the top (mid $40,000 range), Colt M16 (upper $30,000 range), M16 RR conversion (low to mid $30,000 range), and my guess is that a LL would be in the upper $20,000 range, but I really don’t know.

Why has the DIAS climbed to the top? It can do more calibers because the RR guns are limited by their magwell. But even in 2004, World War II guns had a higher market value. Twenty years later the DIAS and HK registered sear or trigger frame has skyrocketed in market value compared to the World War II guns. Today most middle class guys are lucky to afford one transferable machine gun.

I personally think that the design that you sent Richard that he has since refined to became the Max-/15 has really advanced the Mac style family of registered receivers beyond a subgun. But to me the limiting feature is barrel/caliber changes. I understand that there are a couple of quick change barrel systems that can be adapted to the Max-/15. To me your magwell/barrel change system is a big step forward. Is it for everyone? I don’t think so, but for those who want such a feature it would be a huge plus. What other platform could quickly go from 7.62X51, to 6.5 Creedmore, to 277 Fury, 8.6 Black Out , to 12 gauge in full auto? Just being able to change barrels because it is hot with two pushpins would certainly have appeal. Being able to change calibers or just a fresh barrel has certainly increased the market value of the AR, why not the M10?

Again your design, your decision. Depending on caliber, the upper would need to be removed and the bolt group changed. But having the removable barrel/magwell to install a fresh barrel would certainly less expensive than having multiple complete uppers. Again, good luck with your project.

Scott

 

[strobro32]

I would love a 12ga upper for the A1.

How hard could it be? Famous last words.

 

[Alaska_Shooter]

I had hoped to do a video of it running so I could post a thread about it by now

I’m sure you’d have no shortage of volunteers ?

I’m sorry to hear about your hand. Keep the faith - you’ll get through it!

 

[Alaska_Shooter]

To follow somewhat along with Scott’s value and versatility points:

If the super safeties stay legal I have to wonder about the sales viability of $3000+ uppers. The alternative (buying a new semi gun and adding a SS) starts becoming more appealing

It’s hard to know how it will all play out in the future

 

[A&S Conversions]

This is “mak91” thread about their project. Let’s not sidetrack their thread. I have started a thread specifically about the high dollar value accessories for registered machine guns versus some of the fast firing options that are not anywhere near the cost of a transferable. The thread is https://www.uzitalk.com/forums/inde...y-of-multiple-thousand-dollar-accessories.com if anyone is interested.

Scott

 

[mak91]

Some good news, P.S. is back to working part time on this m11/a1 22lr project.

 

[strobro32]

Yes.