MAC 10 Bolt Blueprints

ADarkMan

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Hi,

I'm newly registered but been perusing the site for sometime now.

Going to intro my post to avoid unnecessary dialog.

First, I am WELL AWARE that making any firearm that one cannot legally purchase NEW places it in the category of NFA item or outright not legal. Anyone who wants to skirt the intentions of my post, please don't go down this path with me. I have no intention of building a full auto piece of kit, period, no question, none. Do I want to know and have in my possession all the variant possibilities that the weapon COULD BE operated and has been built historically, YES, I do, for reference purposes. Old sage finger wagers need not apply nor respond to this post with admonitions and questions of intent. No matter what anyone has replied historically here to those conversations, the end result is always silence or a regurgitation of law and ATF spook lore coming to people's doors. I'm not building, they shall not come.

Second, I am interested in the open bolt original design, not the later third part closed bolt function weapon. The original .45 model M-10 is the focus of my search, but if anyone has .380 or 9mm variant answers to my question, please do chime in, beggars can't be choosers, and I can do math, plus I'm not building one, so I can infer what I need from information I already have on all three models.

Okay, so, THE QUESTION (there are two):

Does anyone is exacting schematics for the bolt of a M10, to include the the extractor assembly? Seems like a odd sticking point, but I really wan to be as close to the original.

I have seen and collected a number of image links to M10 bolts, and I prefer the simple original to some of the later "lightened" models, but, again, beggars cannot be choosers, if you have some spec for a modernized bolt tat is the proper receiver interior dimensions, I'll take it. Like I said before, I can figure out what I need to if I feel I have enough information at hand.

Second question:

For the love of all that is good in this world, how is it that something that has a patent in the public domain for so long has next to no available content online in terms of specs, schematics, and blueprints. I am up to my gills in receivers, upper and lower, trigger assemblies (legal and otherwise), magazines, the list is endless. It is except for one thing and one thing only, THE BOLT. Why is this thing such a unicorn? The lower of the weapon contains the trigger assembly and what makes it semi or not. It's a mind boggling. I can find how to make the selective fire assembly online, but I can't find a stupid bolt. Is there some sort of mystique or special cache about this gun part that has made it a jealously guarded secret?
 

A&S Conversions

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To your first question, the “lightened” bolts are actually the original design. It is my understanding that those originals with the lightening features were cast steel with finishing machining. Maybe they are available somewhere, but to my knowledge, the original design extractor is no longer available commercially. The current design (the smooth rectangular surface) is CNC produced. There are a couple different places to purchase, but my understanding is that there is only one manufacturer producing new M10 bolts with a machined protrusion in the face of the bolt. The only real demand is as a replacement part for registered receiver machine guns.

There are some digital versions of the M10 bolt available online. All that I am aware of are of questionable quality. A couple of thousands in the bolt face dimensions can very much affect function of the open bolt system. To my knowledge the specs are lost to time.

The M10 specs are all over the place as they were designed to be an inexpensive “throw away” design. So the dimensions of individual receivers and receivers between manufacturers is all over the place. I spent several hundred dollars paying my engineer to model the bolt. I have no plans to post such information for free. Time is money.

As far as “legal or otherwise” that sentiment is not popular here. Everything that I shared above and more you can find on this site. The M10 bolt is an unregulated part. Go buy some bolts and figure it out. Maybe you can find someone with a similar prospective at Weapons Guild. I don’t have anything more for you.

Scott
Manager A&S Conversions LLC
 

ADarkMan

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To your first question, the “lightened” bolts are actually the original design. It is my understanding that those originals with the lightening features were cast steel with finishing machining. Maybe they are available somewhere, but to my knowledge, the original design extractor is no longer available commercially. The current design (the smooth rectangular surface) is CNC produced. There are a couple different places to purchase, but my understanding is that there is only one manufacturer producing new M10 bolts with a machined protrusion in the face of the bolt. The only real demand is as a replacement part for registered receiver machine guns.

There are some digital versions of the M10 bolt available online. All that I am aware of are of questionable quality. A couple of thousands in the bolt face dimensions can very much affect function of the open bolt system. To my knowledge the specs are lost to time.

The M10 specs are all over the place as they were designed to be an inexpensive “throw away” design. So the dimensions of individual receivers and receivers between manufacturers is all over the place. I spent several hundred dollars paying my engineer to model the bolt. I have no plans to post such information for free. Time is money.

As far as “legal or otherwise” that sentiment is not popular here. Everything that I shared above and more you can find on this site. The M10 bolt is an unregulated part. Go buy some bolts and figure it out. Maybe you can find someone with a similar prospective at Weapons Guild. I don’t have anything more for you.

Scott
Manager A&S Conversions LLC
Scott,

Thank you for that reply and I WAS unaware there was a vendor making replacement bolts for NFA registered originals. I'm going to try to find them. You're idea might be best (though I hope I don't end up spending as much on a bolt than maybe buying a new gun, but, you do what you have to do I guess).

As for the monies you've already spent, I might be inclined to license a copy of your spec depending on the troubles and costs in getting one of those replacement bolts, I'll let you know.

Thanks again.
 

skiboatsp

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It's not that hard to reverse engineer it yourself. Of course I'm speaking for myself as a 40 yr Journeyman machinist / ME
 

A&S Conversions

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GK8041

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The current production CNC bolt (double feed 9 for ex.) is cut differently than the OEM cast bolt when compared side by side, different dimension and slightly heavier too. Is this an improved design allegedly? Would not the CNC process in theory allow for more exact cloning of the OEM part?

Any issues/excessive wear running a CNC bolt against the OEM cast FCG parts, rr lower etc.?
 

Deerhurst

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CNC is just a method of manufacturing and has no bearing on replicating an existing item. It is up to a person to accurately measure and model/create GCode to make the CNC machine spit out an accurate copy.


New machined FCG components exist.
 

skiboatsp

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CNC is a machine. In this case it would be a milling center.

It uses the same tooling ie end mills / drills / reamers / cutters as a manual machine.

The advantage is speed / accuracy / flood coolant / ability to quickly adjust geometry on the go.

When you reverse engineer, you create a print or a digital copy which is called geometry.

The trick is knowing where proper tolerances are needed and required.

This sounds just like a customer who wanted to build new Suomi drums.

We tried to help him understand manufacturing processes and cost plus the chance someone like Clearview might find pallets of drums in the future which is exactly what happened.

We reverse engineered the drum, created to geometry. We were paid a pretty penny, and since the project never saw the light of day.

In this case just too expensive unless you create tens of thousands to justify the development cost
 

ADarkMan

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A quick search brought me to

https://macmachineguns.com/?page_id=178 which is Practical Solutions page for M10 subgun replacement bolt in .45 ACP for $246.99 plus shipping.

https://www.ftfindustries.com/product/RP-SP45BC11-CNC-F.html which is the page for FTF Industries M10 open bolt complete bolt assembly for $239.99 plus shipping.

If all you want is a bolt assembly these both show in stock.

Scott
Again, thank you, I found the ftf site after your first post and I think I'll likely just go with that, since the dimensions are replacement parts for an original supposedly, pre ban anyway.

I had seen a picture of an approximation of the original extractor and the new ones from ftf are a far cry from what I saw, though, again, my knowledge is good, not great, on the topic. I have to say that the ftf extractors look SUBSTANTIALLY more durable then the image I saw of the original, so I guess it was an improvement, rather than a cheap knock off.

I appreciate your help again.
 

ADarkMan

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The current production CNC bolt (double feed 9 for ex.) is cut differently than the OEM cast bolt when compared side by side, different dimension and slightly heavier too. Is this an improved design allegedly? Would not the CNC process in theory allow for more exact cloning of the OEM part?

Any issues/excessive wear running a CNC bolt against the OEM cast FCG parts, rr lower etc.?
You said different dimensions. It would stand to reason that the length then would be the only viable difference. The inter width of the lowe and upper receiver can't be changed.

This is what you meant?

And for clarity, I'm spec'ing only the .45 model. That said though, I do find this a little confusing.
 

Deerhurst

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You said different dimensions. It would stand to reason that the length then would be the only viable difference. The inter width of the lowe and upper receiver can't be changed.

This is what you meant?

And for clarity, I'm spec'ing only the .45 model. That said though, I do find this a little confusing.
The bolt can be made longer, wider, taller, more or less FP protrusion, etc. Tolerances tell you how well it will fit. If your tolerances are too loose you might end up with a bolt that goes like a hotdog down a hallway in the upper or a bolt that physically does not fit. Maybe even a perfectly sized bolt but the FP protrusion won't set off primers or an extractor won't fit.
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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Hi,

I'm newly registered but been perusing the site for sometime now.

Going to intro my post to avoid unnecessary dialog.

First, I am WELL AWARE that making any firearm that one cannot legally purchase NEW places it in the category of NFA item or outright not legal. Anyone who wants to skirt the intentions of my post, please don't go down this path with me. I have no intention of building a full auto piece of kit, period, no question, none. Do I want to know and have in my possession all the variant possibilities that the weapon COULD BE operated and has been built historically, YES, I do, for reference purposes. Old sage finger wagers need not apply nor respond to this post with admonitions and questions of intent. No matter what anyone has replied historically here to those conversations, the end result is always silence or a regurgitation of law and ATF spook lore coming to people's doors. I'm not building, they shall not come.

Second, I am interested in the open bolt original design, not the later third part closed bolt function weapon. The original .45 model M-10 is the focus of my search, but if anyone has .380 or 9mm variant answers to my question, please do chime in, beggars can't be choosers, and I can do math, plus I'm not building one, so I can infer what I need from information I already have on all three models.

Okay, so, THE QUESTION (there are two):

Does anyone is exacting schematics for the bolt of a M10, to include the the extractor assembly? Seems like a odd sticking point, but I really wan to be as close to the original.

I have seen and collected a number of image links to M10 bolts, and I prefer the simple original to some of the later "lightened" models, but, again, beggars cannot be choosers, if you have some spec for a modernized bolt tat is the proper receiver interior dimensions, I'll take it. Like I said before, I can figure out what I need to if I feel I have enough information at hand.

Second question:

For the love of all that is good in this world, how is it that something that has a patent in the public domain for so long has next to no available content online in terms of specs, schematics, and blueprints. I am up to my gills in receivers, upper and lower, trigger assemblies (legal and otherwise), magazines, the list is endless. It is except for one thing and one thing only, THE BOLT. Why is this thing such a unicorn? The lower of the weapon contains the trigger assembly and what makes it semi or not. It's a mind boggling. I can find how to make the selective fire assembly online, but I can't find a stupid bolt. Is there some sort of mystique or special cache about this gun part that has made it a jealously guarded secret?
I run a small business specializing in vintage MAC parts and accessories. I do have the original cast bolts that you seek. They do make modern CNC replacements but nothing tops the originals in my opinion. If you are searching for an original cast “speed bolt” for the Ingram, shoot me a message and I’ll show you what I have available at the moment.
 

GK8041

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IMG_2698.jpegIMG_2697.jpegIMG_2696.jpegIMG_2695.jpegIMG_2700.jpeg

The FA bolts are similar in dimensions, but are cut differently - “geometry” I suppose. The CNC bolt assembly (yellowish buffer) doesn’t allow enough pin/hole alignment to reassemble the OEM upper/rr lower, nor with a CNC fat ghost upper/lower. The holes are slightly misaligned with the new bolt group inserted in either upper - I’ll talk to Sam about this; maybe it’s a minor fix for fitment. I would like to get this new bolt running good enough for a hobby gun. Still, I will likely start adding original (cast) parts to my collection of spares in the future.
 

ADarkMan

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I run a small business specializing in vintage MAC parts and accessories. I do have the original cast bolts that you seek. They do make modern CNC replacements but nothing tops the originals in my opinion. If you are searching for an original cast “speed bolt” for the Ingram, shoot me a message and I’ll show you what I have available at the moment.
Thank you MWG (the name was not lost on me). While I'd love to get my hands on one to measure, I need sometime to round up the disposable funds to consider buying one.

You are definitely on my short list though and when I can I'll message you.
 

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