Mac 11/9 Upper Options?
- Thread starter scottMO
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m11stuff@hotmail.com
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I would guess what you really mean is an upper that takes AK47 mag’s. The MAX-11A1/15, MAX-11/15 and MAX-10/15 can be easily changed to 7.62x39 with a bolt, barrel and AR15 pattern 7.62x39 mag’ swap.
Well Sir... more like the original commie 7.62x39 mags, not the AR15 pattern 7.62x39 type mags - for the MAX-10/15... not the handy type here and only trust you and Sam/Practical Solutions. Thank you for your reply!
m11stuff@hotmail.com
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What if we offered it as a caliber option, ready to go?
There are prototypes for all the mac frame sizes in 22lr that have positive determination letters and a waiting list with Practical Solutions. There is a 308 Nato prototype for the m10 with positive determination letter and a waiting list with practical Solutions. If you search this forum you will find topics on all of them.
I have the following prototypes built that are in various stages of research/development/testing. None of the following have been submitted to the ATF for a determination letter yet and the is no waiting list yet.
M11/9-am180 : 22lr receiver for the m11/9 that uses am180 drums. Runs but needs tweaking.
m11/9-410ar : 410 shotgun receiver for the m11/9 that uses ATI ar style mags. Runs, needs more testing.
m11/9-410ak: 410 shotgun receiver for the m11/9 that uses Saiga ak style mags. Runs, needs tweaking.
m11/9-Loki: Modular receiver for the m11/9. Uses ar style take down pins to quickly swap out barrel/mag wells. Currently testing 2 modules, one for 5.56x45 using ar style mags and one for 7.62x39 using ak47 style mags. More caliber / mag wells could be developed.
m10/12ga: 12ga shotgun receiver for the m10 that uses Saiga ak style mags. Runs, needs more testing.
I think that is it but its early and I haven't finish my coffee yet.
I have the following prototypes built that are in various stages of research/development/testing. None of the following have been submitted to the ATF for a determination letter yet and the is no waiting list yet.
M11/9-am180 : 22lr receiver for the m11/9 that uses am180 drums. Runs but needs tweaking.
m11/9-410ar : 410 shotgun receiver for the m11/9 that uses ATI ar style mags. Runs, needs more testing.
m11/9-410ak: 410 shotgun receiver for the m11/9 that uses Saiga ak style mags. Runs, needs tweaking.
m11/9-Loki: Modular receiver for the m11/9. Uses ar style take down pins to quickly swap out barrel/mag wells. Currently testing 2 modules, one for 5.56x45 using ar style mags and one for 7.62x39 using ak47 style mags. More caliber / mag wells could be developed.
m10/12ga: 12ga shotgun receiver for the m10 that uses Saiga ak style mags. Runs, needs more testing.
I think that is it but its early and I haven't finish my coffee yet.
A&S Conversions
UZI Talk Life Member
We have submitted both an open bolt and closed bolt versions of the Tenko adapter installed into two M10 transferable receivers to the NFA Branch. The Tenko is an adapter that allows the use of standard AR-15/M16 upper receivers and magazines. So I would think that any upper available for the AR platform could be used with our adapter.
Once the Tenko 10-16 and 11-16 adapters has been approved and brought to market, we plan to develop a similar adapter that would use the mechanism of the AK, not just the magazine. We also plan to do a modular “upper” for the 9 series of roller delayed firearms. We are patiently waiting for the determination.
Scott
Manager A&S Conversations
Once the Tenko 10-16 and 11-16 adapters has been approved and brought to market, we plan to develop a similar adapter that would use the mechanism of the AK, not just the magazine. We also plan to do a modular “upper” for the 9 series of roller delayed firearms. We are patiently waiting for the determination.
Scott
Manager A&S Conversations
A&S Conversions
UZI Talk Life Member
Original Poster, I think that your original question has been answered. If you don’t mind I would like to address this aspect of possibilities. There is video of my brother running his Shrike and me running a friend’s 9mm belt fed uppers on the Tenko 10-16. Beyond that, I would think that most belt fed machine gun’s mechanisms could be adapted to the Mac style registered receiver platform.
The biggest problems would be parts and development. It is my understanding the original Shrike used top covers and feed parts for the Shrike using FN M249 parts but FN didn’t want to sell the parts for a civilian conversion. My limited experience with manufacturing has been that building a custom part to replace an off the shelf part has cost me 10 to 20 times the cost of the OTS part.
Could a medium or full size rifle caliber belt fed conversion be made? Certainly, but to me the challenge would be coming up with the feed parts with the tight tolerance needed for such a niche market. The cost of the semi 249 is $10,000. What would it cost to adapt those parts to a Mac style RR? How much would such an upper cost to bring to market for say 25 or even 50 units total sales? Even a Tenko with a Shrike plus the market value of a M10 would be less than half the market value of a M16 conversion with the Shrike. But how many Mac style RR owners would buy a $12,000, $13,000, or $14,000 belt fed upper?
Scott
A&S Conversions
UZI Talk Life Member
Could a belt fed in whatever caliber be made for the Mac family of RR machine guns? I would imagine someone will. There are legacy designs that the patent has run out that are still being made. So using the existing receiver design into an upper could be done with one worrying about patent infringement.
My point is could the manufacturer of a belt fed upper for the Mac family be able to sell that upper and make a profit? Most commercially available belt fed guns that I can think of, the parts set would be around $10,000+. If the manufacturer of the upper could buy parts sets from a current manufacturer (many don’t want to sell their parts for use in the private market), that upper manufacturer would still need to design and build the upper receivers based on the original machine gun receiver. Plus the cost of testing. Owners would not be happy if the belt fed upper cracked the back plate welds of their transferable RR.
It is my understanding that a transferable M60 in E6 configuration would have a market value of close to $75,000. To me, the ballpark retail price of a M60 based upper for a Mac would be in the $15-$18,000 range. How many current Mac style RR owners would be willing to spend $15,000 on an upper? Certainly there would be those who would like to own a transferable M60-E6 that would buy a Mac style RR for such an upper.
My point is that certainly a belt fed upper could be made. But would that manufacture be able to make enough profit to stay open?
Scott
My point is could the manufacturer of a belt fed upper for the Mac family be able to sell that upper and make a profit? Most commercially available belt fed guns that I can think of, the parts set would be around $10,000+. If the manufacturer of the upper could buy parts sets from a current manufacturer (many don’t want to sell their parts for use in the private market), that upper manufacturer would still need to design and build the upper receivers based on the original machine gun receiver. Plus the cost of testing. Owners would not be happy if the belt fed upper cracked the back plate welds of their transferable RR.
It is my understanding that a transferable M60 in E6 configuration would have a market value of close to $75,000. To me, the ballpark retail price of a M60 based upper for a Mac would be in the $15-$18,000 range. How many current Mac style RR owners would be willing to spend $15,000 on an upper? Certainly there would be those who would like to own a transferable M60-E6 that would buy a Mac style RR for such an upper.
My point is that certainly a belt fed upper could be made. But would that manufacture be able to make enough profit to stay open?
Scott
Good points Scott but at this point I don't think that using new made MG parts like from an FN Minimi (M-249) is realistic because they likely wouldn't sell the parts. Military contractors can be a bit protective and not understanding of the consumer market. I read somewhere that FN management was rather dubious of the semiauto M-249 and still are but the sales numbers and profit margin are keeping them quiet for now (the cost of an M-249 is about $5000 to the US Govt spares, training, and etc. aside VS the $10,000 semi auto). Any other MGs out there? Maybe someone somewhere in the world is making a belt fed and is willing to sell parts here but that would take some serious shopping and negotiating and importation skills.
Something made from old parts kits is possible but the supply of those is drying up quickly though one could focus on the adaptor parts and let the buyer find their own parts kit on the secondary market.
I would look to Freedom Ordnance as the best bet. Their FM-9 9mm belt fed retails for $2900. Could this be redesigned to work on a MAC? Probably. The downside is that it's still 9mm so is that really any better than a Max-31 and a 70 round drum? Probably not for most shooters. Could it be re-engineered to shoot 5.56 or .308? Possibly but it would likely be 80% or more new parts. I would think that if they can do the 9mm for $2900 and make a profit that they could do a rifle caliber for under $5000 and make a profit. Do they have the facilities to make a rifle caliber belt fed upper for the MAC (and possibly a sister version for the AR-15/M-16)? Dunno.
I got at shoot an MG-42 this summer. That was a hoot. Like a giant mini-MAC with a 50 round magazine. I'd pay up for something like that based on a MAC-10 lower.
Something made from old parts kits is possible but the supply of those is drying up quickly though one could focus on the adaptor parts and let the buyer find their own parts kit on the secondary market.
I would look to Freedom Ordnance as the best bet. Their FM-9 9mm belt fed retails for $2900. Could this be redesigned to work on a MAC? Probably. The downside is that it's still 9mm so is that really any better than a Max-31 and a 70 round drum? Probably not for most shooters. Could it be re-engineered to shoot 5.56 or .308? Possibly but it would likely be 80% or more new parts. I would think that if they can do the 9mm for $2900 and make a profit that they could do a rifle caliber for under $5000 and make a profit. Do they have the facilities to make a rifle caliber belt fed upper for the MAC (and possibly a sister version for the AR-15/M-16)? Dunno.
I got at shoot an MG-42 this summer. That was a hoot. Like a giant mini-MAC with a 50 round magazine. I'd pay up for something like that based on a MAC-10 lower.
If the Tenko adapter comes to market, that should allow use of a Shrike/Aeries/Fightlite belt fed upper. So in my opinion 5.56 is covered. No need to pay $18k for a M249 upper. What I would like to see is an upper based on the PKM. Although the parts kits are drying up the weapon is still in use and production so parts should be available. Of course politics makes getting Russian parts difficult.
Belt fed uppers is a very small niche market and I don't think we will see any come to market. Please prove me wrong, but the economics don't make sense. As Scott pointed out a belt fed upper based on an available parts kit would be in the $16k to $18k range. Yes that is cheaper than a transferable M60 but it is still a very expensive toy. Selling enough units to cover R&D costs would be difficult. There are several threads on this site discussing the cost of bringing a rifle upper or rifle upper adapter to market. I'm sure a belt fed upper based on a military light or medium machine gun would get even more scrutiny from BATFE.
I'm not trying to be negative, and I hope belt fed uppers come to market. I would buy one and possibly one of each one that came to market, but I don't think they would sell enough of them to make it financially viable.
Belt fed uppers is a very small niche market and I don't think we will see any come to market. Please prove me wrong, but the economics don't make sense. As Scott pointed out a belt fed upper based on an available parts kit would be in the $16k to $18k range. Yes that is cheaper than a transferable M60 but it is still a very expensive toy. Selling enough units to cover R&D costs would be difficult. There are several threads on this site discussing the cost of bringing a rifle upper or rifle upper adapter to market. I'm sure a belt fed upper based on a military light or medium machine gun would get even more scrutiny from BATFE.
I'm not trying to be negative, and I hope belt fed uppers come to market. I would buy one and possibly one of each one that came to market, but I don't think they would sell enough of them to make it financially viable.
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